Forum Super Mario Kart

Communauté SMK => Le Championnat Super Mario Kart => Règlement => Discussion démarrée par: duffjr le 31 juillet 2010, à 08:26:11

Titre: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: duffjr le 31 juillet 2010, à 08:26:11
I propose the semifinal goal to be first to score 15 and the final goal to be first to 21.

Pros:
Less random factors in longer match.
More aggressive play(more risks taken).

Cons:
20 minutes longer for semis, 30 minutes longer for final.
Chance for larger score differential(match not as close).

Implementation:
All players agree to goal total before start of tournament or only semifinalists/finalists agree to goal total before start of matches. 
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 31 juillet 2010, à 15:05:21
The main problem about this idea is that cons are much more important than pros... :-\

Many people already think that first to 11 is way too long, so I don't think there would be lots of players who would agree with your proposition :(
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Geo le 02 août 2010, à 16:28:20
Personnaly, I think first to 15 and 21 is too long, specially after a full day of battle mode playing. :-X

I really like the actual rule : first to 5/7/9/11.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Champion de la TOC le 02 août 2010, à 16:42:04
The problem was maybe having several hours gaps sometimes between the quarters, semis, finals etc. We got sidetracked and started playing table tennis for too long lol

If we shorten the break times just a tiny bit, the extra 20-30 mins for a few matches would be easily fit in. We could start the poules a bit earlier in the day also, not 4pm?

Of course i dont want to be having a semi final battle mode to drag on too long either but it wont affect me as i wont reach that far this year. For Drew it could be interesting to see the results though...

Up to you guys.
Titre: Re : Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Geo le 02 août 2010, à 16:46:35
Yes I understand the point of Drew but :

1) for me the CDM is already a marathon

2) first to 9/11 is enought in my opinion

Of course i dont want to be having a semi final battle mode to drag on too long either but it wont affect me as i wont reach that far this year.

True, more far...
Titre: Re : Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Geo le 02 août 2010, à 16:50:26
If we shorten the break times just a tiny bit, the extra 20-30 mins for a few matches would be easily fit in. We could start the poules a bit earlier in the day also, not 4pm?

Yes and yes, but in the theory.... in the reality, it's not easy to control a group of 30-40 guys, because we frenches are uneducated. ;D
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 02 août 2010, à 16:54:40
Yes and yes, but in the theory...

I love the "word-to-word" way you're speaking English Geo... :D
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Champion de la TOC le 02 août 2010, à 16:57:04
If we shorten the break times just a tiny bit, the extra 20-30 mins for a few matches would be easily fit in. We could start the poules a bit earlier in the day also, not 4pm?

Yes and yes, but in the theory.... in the reality, it's not easy to control a group of 30-40 guys, because we frenches are uneducated. ;D


Yes Geo but you dont have to worry about 30-40 Frenchies, you only have to worry about one...

Looks at crazy Parigo
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 02 août 2010, à 17:20:40
I think what Drew means is instead of "wasting" time (to say it in a politically incorrect manner) beating people he knows he will beat in the poule phases all day long, he'd rather have longer matches in the final phases that actually matter and determine the ultimate results.

I'm in favour of his proposition, if it doesn't need much more playing time overall. Just reduce the group stage a bit, which involves  beating generic newbie A,B,C,D with 4-0, and extent the matches that determine who can actually call himself World Champion.  8)

This can be achieved by splitting the qualification into 4 different groups for example.

I definitely think the CDM puts too much emphasis on the qualification stage and in comparison too little on the finals. Especially for an event that states that it produces "official" World Champions. This seems especially true in Battle Mode, where a first to 20 match can be reached quite easily and adapting to your opponent can take a few matches.
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 02 août 2010, à 17:25:01
I definitely think the CDM puts too much emphasis on the qualification stage and too little on the finals, in comparison, especially in Battle Mode, where a first to 20 match can be reached quite easily.

I totally disagree with you on that point. Battle is from far the longest mode of all because of very long single matches that cannot be foreseen. Battle final phase is obviously longer than MR or even GP because of that.
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 02 août 2010, à 17:26:41
That's because when it's first to 7, like the current quarter finals for example, losing 1 match is relatively more costly, so players will play ultra-defensively. If you have a large buffer for a comeback this will encourage more attacking and aggressive play, which will speed up the matches significantly.

Illustrated with a real-life example, I always play vs Marius online and we both play very aggressive...we can reach a first to 30 in like 1 hour sometimes.  :-X We NEVER spent much time on 1 map.  >:D

EDIT: To fix the problem of having a large group of players sitting and doing nothing for the rest of the day when the group stages are over, we could organize a losers bracket in parallel. This will be more exciting and interesting for them anyway. Another example to illustrate this: I'd say Narnet would take more pleasure playing close matches vs Aron Langerak and the likes, then vs Geo, Flo and Sami. Players like him will get the right dose in terms of opposition difficulty with such a system...the chance to face a stronger player 2 or 3 times (instead of 8 times) in the qualification and then a chance to play players of his own lvl for the remainder of the day. I know this probably reeks of political incorrectness (especially by using examples), but I do think the point holds true.
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: djo le 02 août 2010, à 17:31:51
which involves  beating generic newbie A,B,C,D with 4-0, and extent the matches that determine who can actually call himself World Champion.  8)

This can be achieved by splitting the poules into 4 different groups for example.
If you do that, the newbie play less... :-\

But in that case I could suggest to adopt the "belgian system" used this year at the CDB. With that you don't need to do groups (very difficult to do 4 groups equitably, especially in BM) and you can play as much matches as you want with any number of player... and last but not least with a lot of interesting matches in the poule, because you play each time against your nearest opponent of the ranking!
For example : 10 matches of poule with 36 players!

Ask to FF or Narnet, they try it and love it! 8)
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 02 août 2010, à 17:34:12
That's more or less what I just proposed in my edit, but achieved through a different system.  ;D
Thanks for underlining the point though, I do completely agree.  :)
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 02 août 2010, à 17:47:21
Illustrated with a real-life example, I always play vs Marius online and we both play very aggressive...we can reach a first to 30 in like 1 hour sometimes.  :-X We NEVER spent much time on 1 map.  >:D

The difference between a friendly opposition and an official match is rather huge, and will have a big influence on the way both players will drive, and on their defensive strategies. When you reach an as high level as a CDM quarterfinal, you'll never be able to perform a first to 30 within a single hour. Unless both players are Harold-like drivers who take all risks.
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: djo le 02 août 2010, à 17:52:20
That's more or less what I just proposed in my edit, but achieved through a different system.  ;D
Thanks for underlining the point though, I do completely agree.  :)
For me, we could change the poule system to have something more exciting for all level of player. But I'm pretty sure (and have yet try it) that this kind of reform couldn't pass :-\

We dared it this year and that was a great success (with only 6 matches in the poule!!!), everybody like it : the big newbies and the top players. The belgian forum seem to have some problem at the moment so I can't illustrate at the moment what I say with the results of the CDB.
http://smkbelgium.monforum.com/cdb-2010-resultats-vt931989.html  (http://smkbelgium.monforum.com/cdb-2010-resultats-vt931989.html)

But if some people want to learn more about our poule system I can explain it quitely here :)
Titre: Re: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 02 août 2010, à 18:00:22
Illustrated with a real-life example, I always play vs Marius online and we both play very aggressive...we can reach a first to 30 in like 1 hour sometimes.  :-X We NEVER spent much time on 1 map.  >:D

The difference between a friendly opposition and an official match is rather huge, and will have a big influence on the way both players will drive, and on their defensive strategies. When you reach an as high level as a CDM quarterfinal, you'll never be able to perform a first to 30 within a single hour. Unless both players are Harold-like drivers who take all risks.

Well if this really poses a problem, then you could set a timer before each showdown to award fast play. For example, give a quarter final a maximum duration of 30 minutes; if the goal-score isn't reached in this time, because both guys are playing like pussies, the guy who is in the lead at this point, gains the win. In the case of a draw play 1 more elimination match to decide.
Titre: Re : Re: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 02 août 2010, à 18:40:49
Well if this really poses a problem, then you could set a timer before each showdown to award fast play. For example, give a quarter final a maximum duration of 30 minutes; if the goal-score isn't reached in this time, because both guys are playing like pussies, the guy who is in the lead at this point, gains the win. In the case of a draw play 1 more elimination match to decide.

Very interesting point, and guess what, Claire had the same idea ;D
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Neo, the Daenerys Targaryen of SMK le 02 août 2010, à 22:52:51
I'm totally against this proposition.

Or let's make a first to 21 rounds final in MR and first to 10 cups in GP :P
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: ScouB le 02 août 2010, à 22:55:19
joe le venere  ;D
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Neo, the Daenerys Targaryen of SMK le 02 août 2010, à 23:20:19
Nan mais voilà quoi, à un moment donné, il faut quand même réagir clairement quand les gens proposent de la chiasse en barquette ;D
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: noctambule le 03 août 2010, à 13:06:44
I don't support this new system. One side I understand the world champion would be more legitimate with a first to 20 final. moreover a short match that ends with 11-3 or 11-4 (drew ;D :-*) could be frustrating for the public and of course for the looser which could have made a return in a longer match (and think about that all life long ::))
but such a system is too random considering the time (for the battle mode). I know in that case a stopwatch could be a good solution, but I don't like the idea of loosing because of the time (it already sucks at street fighter, please don't let it enter in smk :P)

In fact, I think we are already playing a lot at the CDM. it's my opinion, but I don't travel to each places where smk championship takes place only to play smk. I think the classic system of 5-7-9-11 is pas mal enough :) if you increase the number of matchs to get the win, then you have to do the same in MR and GP, and I think the finals phases are already quite long (of course for close matchs) I remember having played a final in battle during 50mn (11-9) it's really enough considering you have played all day long and people who are watching you may be lazy in a match that could be 2 times longer :o

the belgium system seems not bad but one of most important point for me in the championship is to play against a larger part of people. strong and weak. of course a match against someone with same level is more intense, but I like above all to play with everybody within the 4/5 days.
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 13:16:03
Yeah you're making some pretty good points Harold. I guess I agree.
I especially don't like the fact you can lose because of a stop-watch as this can even encourage defensive play when you are a few matches in the lead (this happens in SF too when you have more energy than the opponent and time is drawing closer to the end).

There can still be a problem with BM matches that can potentially last forever though, as Mario has signalled earlier, the KO stage apparently takes a lot longer, because of unpredictable insanely long matches happening. This might in the end force us to adopt a time-limit system of sorts. If we are ever going to introduce a time limit to BM matches, I recommend the following:

Once the time limit is exceeded, we still play until the goal score is reached. However, the next matches that take place in over-time are all fought with 1 balloon, to speed up the process. So both players take 2 hits before each match starts and then drive to the middle, at the starting positions of a normal match (or at another location, whatever, as long as you don't have an item ::)). Either that, or we start like normal and the first player who loses a single balloon, loses the match.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: clbrun le 03 août 2010, à 13:44:56
i didn t give my opinion until now because i should not be concerned (because of the BM quarter finals malediction ::) ), but i completely agree with harold.

i could also add that :
- a 20-17 winner is not necessarly much more legitim than a 11-9 winner...
- a 11-4 loser may not have win anyway in a "first to 20" match
- a too long match could make one player (or both players) lose his concentration after one hour of play, so that the winner would not be the most talented player, but the most endurant one (which is already a bit true, seeing how late the finals are played sometimes :-\ )

i m not sure that modifying the rules (sudden death with the first balloon) is a good idea : it would be like the golden goal in soccer => the 2 players would play a lot more defensive, instead of maybe taking some risks knowing they would still have 2 balloons left if they fail...

so i think that the actual rules are just very good, and better (in terms of a costs/advantages balance) on my opinion that all the new proposition exposed here
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 03 août 2010, à 13:48:03
I think the classic system of 5-7-9-11 is pas mal enough :)

Yeah you're making some pretty good points Harold. I guess I agree.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: ScouB le 03 août 2010, à 13:54:19
On a qu'a utiliser les regles de SPK, au bout d'un temps reglementaire le premier a se prendre une errante gagne  ;D et si ya pas d'errante on joue à "chat"  ;D ;D
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 14:04:39
- a too long match could make one player (or both players) lose his concentration after one hour of play, so that the winner would not be the most talented player, but the most endurant one (which is already a bit true, seeing how late the finals are played sometimes :-\ )

Actually this is true as well.  :-X
I think that's also or even mainly because of a too long qualification stage though.

i m not sure that modifying the rules (sudden death with the first balloon) is a good idea : it would be like the golden goal in soccer => the 2 players would play a lot more defensive, instead of maybe taking some risks knowing they would still have 2 balloons left if they fail...

Well in any case this would lead to shorter matches on average (and only after the alloted time has passed), which would be the only reason to introduce this concept anyway.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Gatchan le 03 août 2010, à 14:21:48
I'm against this new system.

Please don't introduce a timer into BM, things will get worse. I mean, WHAT THE FUCK!!, BM is the only mode where you HAVE to win, by crushing your oponent's balloons. Introducing a timer will MAKE people play pussy (as when there's a draw in football or Street Fighter). You can't predict any length of a match, and that's what is thrilling in this mode. And by the way, is playing defensively being pussy? :P I prefer to watch one round that last hours because players keep avoiding red shells (or maybe you find avoiding red shells = pussy?) rather than three rounds that lasted 1 minute because players drove over-risky, and ended with 3 "don't move" :P. More agressive play doesn't always mean more thrilling matches :P. I do LIKE when Map 1 lasts forever.

I find the current system perfect. Tell me one BM final where the new longer system could have been better. If one player is too strong, he'll win anyway (just like on 11-3 or 11-4 finals), so 21-11 is just the same in proportions. And losing 10-11 because of a random factor IS beautiful, because if both players reach 10-10, it means that the have the same level, so only random can settle the victory. I mean, just trust the game. It's not like football where external factors can ruin the game (referee, injury). Those ARE random factors. SMK is just skills.

And about meeting people of every level in the CDM, I totally share Harold's views.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: ScouB le 03 août 2010, à 14:23:45
Amen  8)
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 03 août 2010, à 14:25:14
I like the idea of an allowed time with a sudden death, of course both players would play very defensive but once again, in terms of suspense, we could see great match finals.

The only problem there is to estimate what would be a decent time limit for each phase, because I'm not sure we have the requested data to find what could suit to each step. For example, does anyone know how long the epic Harold vs Sami 2008 quarterfinal lasted? Same question with the tighest semifinals and finals ever played in the past.

If we don't find this kind of info, we should think about basing ourselves on the 2010 matches to introduce the time limit system in 2011, since we would have serious statistics to base on.

EDIT: dammit, having a look at Gatchan's post, he's rather right too. Especially on the pussy playing part ::) ;D
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 14:31:48
Actually I think last year's final would have been a lot better in a first to 20. Drew would have had time to recover (and get used to Koopa again) and would have made it a closer match; hard to prove, but likely. But that's not the point.

Also, the timer would only be used as a last resort when a match would simply take toooo long. And then I'm not talking about individual matches, but an entire match-up (so say an entire Quarter Final). LONG matches are still welcome & cool and will still happen, the only difference would be, that when there are too many in a row at one stage, the time-damage for the organisation would be kept within proportions, by making a couple of shorter matches after the time limit has passed.

Also, if too many red shells are dodged the game becomes potentially broken. I don't know if you ever stopped to think about this, but if a couple of players would reach the lvl of Geo (in terms of red dodging...watch the final of last year, Geo almost doesn't get hit by red shells, no matter what Drew, as the reigning World Champion even!, tried), EVERY match would be decided by a random green + double balloon KO (the infamous French hattrick) punishment to profit from the random green immediately after. So yes to a certain extend, if you're driving patterns are as such that you are always in a position to dodge a red shell, you ARE playing pussy and ruining the mode.
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 03 août 2010, à 14:35:43
Actually I think last year's final would have been a lot better in a first to 20. Drew would have had time to recover (and get used to Koopa again) and would have made it a closer match; hard to prove, but likely. But that's not the point.

Perhaps it would have turned into a wider gap between Geo and Drew, or perhaps not, we'll never know.

I currently cannot support the idea of longer final phases, I'm only "interested" in a time limit concept, even if Gatchan gave strong arguments against that.

I highly doubt we will change the number of winning rounds in that way someday...
Titre: Re: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 14:39:26
Actually I think last year's final would have been a lot better in a first to 20. Drew would have had time to recover (and get used to Koopa again) and would have made it a closer match; hard to prove, but likely. But that's not the point.

Perhaps it would have turned into a wider gap between Geo and Drew, or perhaps not, we'll never know.

Well it's likelier that that match would have gotten more interesting, as Drew still had to get used to Koopa again and showed improvement in the final few matches. It's Drew's own mistake for picking D.K. JR, but Gatchan was asking for an example of a final that could have become more exciting with more rounds, and if anything, I believe this one would have very likely fitted that bill.
I definitely believe Geo would have still won, but it would have probably gotten closer.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: ScouB le 03 août 2010, à 14:40:29
Actually I think last year's final would have been a lot better in a first to 20. Drew would have had time to recover (and get used to Koopa again) and would have made it a closer match; hard to prove, but likely. But that's not the point.

He shoud have also play with koopa at the begining, that's his fault  ;) overconfident in his skills with DK against geo
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 14:41:51
Yeah, but that's not the point. Gatchan was asking for an example and this would be THE example, regardless if it was Drew's mistake or not.
Titre: Re : Re: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 03 août 2010, à 14:44:01
Well it's likelier that that match would have gotten more interesting, as Drew still had to get used to Koopa again and showed improvement in the final few matches. It's Drew's own mistake for picking D.K. JR, but Gatchan was asking for an example of a final that could have become more exciting with more rounds, and if anything, I believe this one would have very likely fitted that bill.
I definitely believe Geo would have still won, but it would have probably gotten closer.

Geo was the best even when Drew switched to Koopa, the final score speaks the truth.

Are we trying to change history or change the future? ;D
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 14:48:47
As last year's final was a first to 11, of course that score speaks the truth. It's logical Geo was better even (and perhaps even especially) when Drew switched to Koopa, as Drew was playing with D.K. JR all week. It does take some time to get used to a new character again and this was time Geo was not going to give him obviously.  ;)
But if you analyze the final 2 or 3 matches, you could already see that Drew was definitely getting closer to Geo's level again, by getting more used to Koopa. Ask Geo himself and he will very likely confirm this. If this pattern continued to develop and you extrapolate from this, a first to 20 would have probably lead to a 20-13 score or so, or closer (more exciting) than the 11-4 at any rate.

I'm not trying to change history, I'm merely saying what I think the effect would have been of a longer match in last year's final and using that as a potential argument.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Gatchan le 03 août 2010, à 14:57:25
I understand you Karel when you say the match could have been closer with both players with their favourite drivers. But I think you cannot use that as an argument, Drew just didn't use the best strategie to win, and was defeated (maybe because of that), that's his fault, not the fault of the 11 wins rule.

And about surhuman skills at avoiding red shells, it's just too much reflection for me to consider it as being pussy. It's "to a certain extend" as you said, an extend I just can't concieve. If one's reach Geo's level and doesn't get hit but by any unlucky triple combo, it just means he deserves to be champion, as Geo became, 'cause he's just intouchable. And he still have to crush the other's balloon, whatever his avoiding level is.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: noctambule le 03 août 2010, à 14:58:48
karel i understand your opinion about the duration of qualification, but as i said before, it's the only way to play with maximum number of players. with current system, you are pretty sure to finish the championship by having met everybody in at least one mode.
it's true that qualification are veeeery long, maybe too long. but i don't see any other solution which could provide such a good fit (playing everybody) :P

I could imagine the introduction of the timer if we decide that the final must be played in 1 hour max. semi 45mn. 1/4 30mn. 1/8 15mn... for example. so players would play that time and we'll see the score.
BUT how would be a match with a strong player against one weaker ? 1/4 finals are usually not close, so after 30mn of playing what would be the score ? 13-2 ? :-X
at the opposite, a very close semi final with 2 strong players (semi-players are always very strong, at least in battle) could be still at 8-7 after 45mn. so..?
i share gatchan's view about battle's duration which is unpredictable. of course that's one of main points that makes this mode special and different. we have to keep that 8)

in case of over-time, i completely disagree the one-balloon idea. tooo random and unfair ! same in tennis you can't imagine instead of tie-break, the player who wins the first point gets the win :-X

Actually I think last year's final would have been a lot better in a first to 20. Drew would have had time to recover (and get used to Koopa again) and would have made it a closer match; hard to prove, but likely. But that's not the point.
i'm convinced it would have been worst for drew in 1st to 20 ;D :-* geo was just unbeatable. I played a lot with him and he played in a way I never seen before, alternating attack and defensiv phases like noboby did :o

So yes to a certain extend, if you're driving patterns are as such that you are always in a position to dodge a red shell, you ARE playing pussy and ruining the mode.
completely agree with that 8) spk's map 3 has been created for those players ::)
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 03 août 2010, à 15:00:00
I'm not trying to change history, I'm merely saying what I think the effect would have been of a longer match in last year's final and using that as a potential argument.

I accept the argument, but have you ever thought about the issues?

Battle Mode is from far the longest of all modes with a first to 5-7-9-11 system. Then, just imagine when we may end the final with a first to 20 system... CDM is already a marathon for many of us and as Harold told before, we're not only here to compete and fight, but to meet ourselves, have fun, play other games, and the best of us would never take adavantage of that week. :(
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 15:07:09
Well my worry is that when several players reach Geo's level of intouchability or red shell immunity, the most decisive factor to seperate two such skilled players would be by how many random greens they would get hit (unlucky three hit combos). But since this is purely hypothetical (like you said Gatchan), the problem hasn't manifested itself at all yet, thankfully.  :P

I still think the 5-7-9-11 system is the best system too actually, but I'm merely posting my reflections on what could be the consequences of different systems. I think it's natural for competitions to evolve. This can only be reached when every potential mutation receives a lot of careful consideration.
Titre: Re : Re : Re: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Champion de la TOC le 03 août 2010, à 15:08:50
Well it's likelier that that match would have gotten more interesting, as Drew still had to get used to Koopa again and showed improvement in the final few matches. It's Drew's own mistake for picking D.K. JR, but Gatchan was asking for an example of a final that could have become more exciting with more rounds, and if anything, I believe this one would have very likely fitted that bill.
I definitely believe Geo would have still won, but it would have probably gotten closer.

Geo was the best even when Drew switched to Koopa, the final score speaks the truth.

Are we trying to change history or change the future? ;D


Yes, he switched to Koopa too late though, so it was over. I too think if he had Koopa fom the start he would have lost that day but with a closer score.

In the end of the day, i still say I rate his D.K.Jr well, not in that final, but his crushing semi final and taking the rest of us all down in a woman's dress :D

So lets see what the future brings, i predict a closer score this time at least. The pressure is on for Geo to win this time though. :)
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 03 août 2010, à 15:09:11
I still think the 5-7-9-11 system is the best system too actually

...

(http://media.koreus.com/200807/30-insolite-04.jpg)

^^
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 15:11:40
Well, as mainly Harold illustrated, the benefits of this system outweigh the cons.

I understand you Karel when you say the match could have been closer with both players with their favourite drivers. But I think you cannot use that as an argument, Drew just didn't use the best strategie to win, and was defeated (maybe because of that), that's his fault, not the fault of the 11 wins rule.

I'm not saying Drew lost because of the fault of the 11 wins rule, that would indeed be quite a stupid statement to make. I am saying that a 20 wins rule would have likely resulted in a better match, which is the example you asked for and thus the point I was trying to make.
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: noctambule le 03 août 2010, à 15:14:37
I still think the 5-7-9-11 system is the best system too actually, but I'm merely posting my reflections on what could be the consequences of different systems. I think it's natural for competitions to evolve. This can only be reached when every potential mutation receives a lot of careful consideration.
true. the current debate shows the consideration is there karel ;)
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 15:16:50
Then why does nothing ever change?  ;D

*Except for TT and the Master Cup experiment.... ::) ;D ;D ;D
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Champion de la TOC le 03 août 2010, à 15:18:50
How about they do this, if Geo and Drew reach the final, they can decide between them if they want to do first to 15 or 20, just as a special occasion. If they are both agreed they do it, if not, then first to 11.


If it takes too long as can all go to sleep and wake up the next morning by the time it is 19-19 just to see the finish :D
Titre: Re : Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 03 août 2010, à 15:20:28
How about they do this, if Geo and Drew reach the final, they can decide between them if they want to do first to 15 or 20, just as a special occasion. If they are both agreed they do it, if not, then first to 11.

Another gentlemen's agreement, after deciding not to use IBs, then lightnings? Will next step be an agreement for not using zoomstarts in MR?
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Gatchan le 03 août 2010, à 15:39:17
I'm not saying Drew lost because of the fault of the 11 wins rule, that would indeed be quite a stupid statement to make. I am saying that a 20 wins rule would have likely resulted in a better match, which is the example you asked for and thus the point I was trying to make.

I know you're not defending that ;), but that's why I can't consider it as the good example I was asking for.

Well my worry is that when several players reach Geo's level of intouchability or red shell immunity, the most decisive factor to seperate two such skilled players would be by how many random greens they would get hit (unlucky three hit combos). But since this is purely hypothetical (like you said Gatchan), the problem hasn't manifested itself at all yet, thankfully.  :P

Maybe I'm repeating myself, but if several players reach this level, ONLY random factor can decide the victory, 'cause both are just too good. That's why it's beautiful, even if it's a random green or a lightning, or whatever is provided by the game.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 15:50:38
Maybe I'm repeating myself, but if several players reach this level, ONLY random factor can decide the victory, 'cause both are just too good. That's why it's beautiful, even if it's a random green or a lightning, or whatever is provided by the game.

I don't think it's necessarily beautiful to be too good at being safe. It's a bit like football, where everyone supports a team like Barcelona, that takes risks and plays with style. Yet Inter wins the CL by defensive play, because they are so good at being safe. But, imagine if there were several teams playing with the same strength and style as Inter, then those matches would be decided by randomness only (for example penalties at the end or wrong ref decisions). I don't know if that's beautiful, in fact, I think the football watching public would dramatically decrease in size if this would be the case for a few years consistently.
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Geo le 03 août 2010, à 16:01:27
Well my worry is that when several players reach Geo's level of intouchability or red shell immunity, the most decisive factor to seperate two such skilled players would be by how many random greens they would get hit (unlucky three hit combos).

I am not that good man... ;D Ok sometimes in a good moment, I am hard to hit BUT there is always a way to finally hit the opponent with a red, finding the good moment to shoot.

And I think you shouldn't over-estimate me, because remember that Drew was playing with DK with a woman's dress. This year, he will take princess he said, and he is the favourite with this character because in the "low speed situations", he is the master. Of course, I still have a chance to win. We will see...

And there are all the others potential winners : Sami, Harold, Florent, Karel, Scoub, Kartie, Mario...
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Gatchan le 03 août 2010, à 16:03:09
I understand what you mean. But difference with footie is that you HAVE to win (no clock to wait for). And in SMK, playing aggressively can also become totally wrong and unefficient (is it beautiful when Harold just tries over-risky moves and fail like shit ;D? No, it's just funny ;D). Hopefully until now nobody tried to win at map 2 by jumping into the water and just waiting for the opponent's mistake (that would be the best defense strat, wouldn't be?). We have moral values and respect for the game, which maybe some football teams don't have. So, just trust the game's decision factor and your skills ;).
Titre: Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: noctambule le 03 août 2010, à 16:07:53
I am not that good man... ;D
...
Drew is the favourite
...
Of course, I still have a chance to win. We will see...
pure sami style ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

is it beautiful when Harold just tries over-risky moves and fail like shit ;D? No, it's just funny ;D
true. my role is to offer people some relaxation O0
Titre: Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 03 août 2010, à 16:11:19
And there are all the others potential winners : Sami, Harold, Florent, Karel, Scoub, Kartie, Mario...

Why are you putting Harold in this list of potential TT winners? ::)
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 16:19:45
Hopefully until now nobody tried to win at map 2 by jumping into the water and just waiting for the opponent's mistake (that would be the best defense strat, wouldn't be?).

Actually it is not IF the opponent knows what he's doing!  ;D It's possible within a few attempts (when timed correctly) to shoot a green through the wall...if succeeded and the opponent is hiding in one of those cubicles, he would almost certainly get hit, because the green only has such a small area to move and will very likely intersect with your hiding spot.  O0

Nice Sami imitation yes Geo!  ;D ;D
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: noctambule le 03 août 2010, à 16:20:08
And there are all the others potential winners : Sami, Harold, Florent, Karel, Scoub, Kartie, Mario...

Why are you putting Harold in this list of potential TT winners? ::)
haha déjà on parle du battle, donc c'est plutot ton nom qui fait office de blague ;D ;D
et bien sur que je peux gagner le TT !... si c'est kartie qui joue :P
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: ScouB le 03 août 2010, à 16:31:06
Ya pas que le sien  ;D
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Champion de la TOC le 03 août 2010, à 16:34:55
And there are all the others potential winners : Sami, Harold, Florent, Karel, Scoub, Kartie, Mario...

Why are you putting Harold in this list of potential TT winners? ::)
haha déjà on parle du battle, donc c'est plutot ton nom qui fait office de blague ;D ;D
et bien sur que je peux gagner le TT !... si c'est kartie qui joue :P

I think Harold can do very well at TT, just bit of luck and could get to the very high ranks.

Mario's great improvement on TT since the past year will also be a potential medallist, maybe even finalist now.
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: KVD le 03 août 2010, à 16:39:13
And you'll just be on the sidelines playing MC1 no-pipejump right?  ;D
Titre: Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Champion de la TOC le 03 août 2010, à 16:44:56
And you'll just be on the sidelines playing MC1 no-pipejump right?  ;D

Damn right blud! Those MC1 corners around the pipes are so sexy!

Oh and Mario: That gentlemen's agreement thing between Geo and Drew of course was just a distant though/idea if they had something like that in mind, it doesnt have to happen at all, id prefer to stay the same also.
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 03 août 2010, à 16:45:24
haha déjà on parle du battle, donc c'est plutot ton nom qui fait office de blague ;D ;D

D'où le fait que j'aie transposé cette liste sur le TT en disant que c'était toi l'intrus ::) ;D
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: noctambule le 03 août 2010, à 16:58:38
D'où le fait que j'aie transposé cette liste sur le TT en disant que c'était toi l'intrus ::) ;D

certes, mais pas plus que géo ;D
Titre: Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Geo le 03 août 2010, à 17:02:05
Oh and Mario: That gentlemen's agreement thing between Geo and Drew of course was just a distant though/idea if they had something like that in mind, it doesnt have to happen at all, id prefer to stay the same also.

Of course but I am not interested about this agreement. ;)

First to 11 is quite enought for me. :-X
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Geo le 03 août 2010, à 17:03:06
certes, mais pas plus que géo ;D

Certes mais plus que Narnet...
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: noctambule le 03 août 2010, à 17:21:27
Certes mais plus que Narnet...
certes mais moins que jésus...
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Champion de la TOC le 03 août 2010, à 17:36:55
Oh and Mario: That gentlemen's agreement thing between Geo and Drew of course was just a distant though/idea if they had something like that in mind, it doesnt have to happen at all, id prefer to stay the same also.

Of course but I am not interested about this agreement. ;)

First to 11 is quite enought for me. :-X

Agreed :) For me first to 0 is enough battle mode, but i guess i have to play it  ;D
Titre: Re: Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: duffjr le 08 août 2010, à 00:05:50
I didn't expect to see more than 1 page of replies and knew the majority would favor the current shorter matches.  I can make all the arguments why longer matches are better--the GP final lasts 90 minutes, longer matches test not only skill but endurance, and BM is traditionally a mode practiced until players feel tired as opposed to GP and MR which traditionally are played once through per session.  The fact remains that the majority of players are satisfied with the current system and 2-player competition has been traditionally about racing until recent years.  In order for a change to come about, we need more players that train primarily in battle and understand why longer matches feel more rewarding.

In regard to the agreement among the final four competitors, it seems we have already agreed to keep the current lengths of 9 and 11.  I hope that opinion will be different in the future as we are continually seeing the quality of battle mode players increase every year.     
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Geo le 21 septembre 2010, à 16:00:53
Finally I accept Drew, when will we replay the final 2010 to decide the winner ? ::)

Ok I am a gentleman, we can start at 11-6 for you, first to 21. :)
Titre: Re : Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Champion de la TOC le 21 septembre 2010, à 17:34:00
Finally I accept Drew, when will we replay the final 2010 to decide the winner ? ::)

Ok I am a gentleman, we can start at 11-6 for you, first to 21. :)

Theres no point, when i trained with him the night before, at one point near the end he literally fell asleep (head hanging down and eyes fully closed so he was not facing the tv), and he was still driving correctly  :-X  :-X  :o

Now i can do that on Match Race but not for more than 30 seconds, this lasted for 2 mins before i nudged him to wake up. He is an alien at Battle Mode. Lets just not play Battle Mode any more cos there is seriously no point if we are up against players like this  ::)  :-X
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Geo le 22 septembre 2010, à 09:31:37
The Nature built him for battle mode. ;D
Titre: Re : Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Champion de la TOC le 22 septembre 2010, à 10:45:07
The Nature built him for battle mode. ;D

There is no such thing as Nature with Drew
Titre: Re : Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: clbrun le 22 septembre 2010, à 12:04:09
Finally I accept Drew, when will we replay the final 2010 to decide the winner ? ::)
Ok I am a gentleman, we can start at 11-6 for you, first to 21. :)

t en as mis du temps à suivre mon conseil ::)
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Geo le 22 septembre 2010, à 12:16:37
1 mois c'est pas trop long, surtout à ton échelle (échelle cosmique).
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 22 septembre 2010, à 13:04:59
C'est toi qui es cosmique... ::)
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: clbrun le 24 septembre 2010, à 08:51:17
à defaut d etre comique... ::)
Titre: Re : Re : Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Antistar le 30 octobre 2013, à 17:07:23
2) first to 9/11 is enought in my opinion

I think Ben Laden agrees.
Titre: Re : Battle Mode Goal Total
Posté par: Neo, the Daenerys Targaryen of SMK le 30 octobre 2013, à 18:20:48
Who is Ben Laden ? One of Ben Allen's fakes ? ???