Forum Super Mario Kart

Communauté SMK => Le Championnat Super Mario Kart => Règlement => Discussion démarrée par: Lafungo le 26 avril 2019, à 16:20:13

Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: Lafungo le 26 avril 2019, à 16:20:13
Based on both my personal opinion and those of other players I've talked with, it seems that people are generally unhappy with the current Time Trial format (in particular the KO stages). In this topic, I'd like to discuss possible changes to the current format to make it more appealing (for both competitors and spectators).

A solution that I've thought of is to reintroduce the Last Man Standing format from the CDF days to replace the current KO stages. This means that we would do the group stage as usual (every player plays through all 20 tracks and is ranked based on AF), and then the Top 16 would play 15 random tracks where the slowest player on each track is eliminated.
Since only 15 of the 20 tracks would be played, we could also add additional tracks in the late rounds for a more resounding climax. For example, the rounds of 4 and 3 players could each be 2 tracks (ranked based on total time), and the final round could be 3 tracks (for a total of 19 tracks played in KO stage).

Here are some pros and cons of this idea:
:carapaceverte: Reduced variance while keeping the spirit of the event (no more mass elimination from GV3, but mess up on one track and you're likely to be eliminated).
:carapaceverte: Increases the number of tracks played in KO stages (one of the major criticisms of the current format is that it's too short).
:carapaceverte: No more issues with players walking around the room to check others' results (which we don't have an official rule about, but people have complained about it).
:carapacerouge: No clear distinction between KO stages (which may be an issue for bonus points in the overall ranking).

As a side note, I would also like to see the return of randomized track order imposed on all players for group stage. I think it makes things more interesting.
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: Antistar le 26 avril 2019, à 17:24:53
 :carapacerouge: you didn't even write in French you cock
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: Moll le 26 avril 2019, à 17:28:50
thats an asshole response
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: SparksF1 le 26 avril 2019, à 19:27:28
:carapacerouge: you didn't even write in French you cock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hR8RQzyOXE



In response to the proposed format changes. While in theory it does seem like a very good idea i feel it would be detrimental to the chances of the players in the medium to high skill bracket of making a top 8 or even a top 4 placing.

Last years GV3 disaster showed that on the day anything can happen and its great motivation for myself knowing that if i perform at my best and someone else makes a mess of things then i can finish ahead.

The time to have a bad run at one or two tracks is in the groups. Make a mistake in the playoffs then you deserve to get knocked out.

   
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: Lafungo le 26 avril 2019, à 20:30:57
Make a mistake in the playoffs then you deserve to get knocked out.

This still holds with Last Man Standing. The pressure to perform on each track remains, as well as the potential for a surprise result. The main difference is that instead of having to beat half the field to progress, you only need to beat one person.
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: SparksF1 le 26 avril 2019, à 20:41:38
Make a mistake in the playoffs then you deserve to get knocked out.

This still holds with Last Man Standing. The pressure to perform on each track remains, as well as the potential for a surprise result. The main difference is that instead of having to beat half the field to progress, you only need to beat one person.

Last year ScouB KVD and Sami went out at the same stage last year. With last man standing at least two of them would have progressed.

I believe that system would allow the big guns to race conservatively and only really push the limits when the later stages arrive.

I like the current system and i hope to be in the top 16 to experience the challenge of trying to make a top 8.
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: Antistar le 26 avril 2019, à 22:01:23
I believe that system would allow the big guns to race conservatively and only really push the limits when the later stages arrive.

I tend to agree on this point, but I also like the old LMS system and I kinda agree with Lafungo's green shells. ;D
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: clbrun le 26 avril 2019, à 22:33:28
in my opinion, it would be fair and coherent to use the same system in playoffs than in group stage : each player get a number of points depending on his rank on the track, and half of the players are qualified depending on the number of points they earned. they would play on 2 tracks each time, except 3 tracks for the finals.
so that there would be an incensitive to get a good rank, but a bad chrono wouldn't be as awful as it is now (it's more possible to come back if you are 10 points behind than if you are 30sec behind)
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: SparksF1 le 26 avril 2019, à 23:35:39
in my opinion, it would be fair and coherent to use the same system in playoffs than in group stage : each player get a number of points depending on his rank on the track, and half of the players are qualified depending on the number of points they earned. they would play on 2 tracks each time, except 3 tracks for the finals.
so that there would be an incensitive to get a good rank, but a bad chrono wouldn't be as awful as it is now (it's more possible to come back if you are 10 points behind than if you are 30sec behind)

I like this idea and it would have made a big differance last year

Working on the system where first equals 1pt and 16th Equals 16pts we get this scenario.

GV3

Antistar 1pt
Wild 2pts
Neo 3pts
Leyla 4pts
MJ 5pts
Lafungo 6pts
Jarmou 7.5pts
Jeremie Clement 7.5pts
Jerome 9pts
KVD 10pts
Conor 11pts
Scoub 12pts
MVH 13pts
Sami 14pts
Franck 15pts
Aron 1,000,000,000,946pts  ;D

VL2
Sami 1pt
Neo 2pts
MVH 3pts
Scoub 4pts
Conor 5pts
Jarmou 6pts
Leyla 7pts
Antistar 8pts
Wild 9pts
Jeremie Clement 10pts
Lafungo 11pts
Jerome 12pts
KVD 13pts
Franck 14pts
MJ 15pts
Aron (Such a high number of points a computer hasnt been invented that can calculate it)  :o



Overall

1st Neo 5pts
2nd Antistar 9pts
3rd ( Tie) Leyla and Wild 11pts
5th Jarmou 13.5
6th Sami 15pts

7th (tie)  Scoub Conor and MVH16pts

This would then have to go back to overall time and Scoub and Conor progress

Eliminated

MVH (As explained above)

Lafungo 17pts
Jeremie Clement 17.5pts
MJ 20pts
Jerome 21pts
KVD 23pts
Aron 32pts


Some food for thought
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: Lafungo le 26 avril 2019, à 23:59:24
Last year ScouB KVD and Sami went out at the same stage last year. With last man standing at least two of them would have progressed.

I believe that system would allow the big guns to race conservatively and only really push the limits when the later stages arrive.

A format that maximizes variance is not the most desirable. One format punishing mistakes harder than another does not make it better. Consider an extreme example: the entire TT competition is one try on one random track, with the results from that one track determining the entire ranking. This format is very high variance and would lead to many upsets, but it should be clear that this is not a desirable format for CDM.

As mentioned in the opening post, the current format is unsatisfactory for many (in particular those making the Top 16 and beyond), in part because its variance is too high. Any format used in a competitive environment has to balance between determining the relative skill levels of participants and satisfying the event's constraints (time and space being the two major ones). That second part naturally introduces variance into the competition, but in principle the format should be attempting to minimize the amount of variance in play (i.e. if player A is better than player B, then A should be ranked above B as often as possible).

Of course, CDM also has some extra constraints due to the fairly unique nature of the event. In particular, it's not a purely competitive event: we try to cater to the enjoyment of all participants, and take into account how fun a given format is to play in and also, to a lesser degree, how fun it is to spectate. This is apparent in the Belgian System, especially with the Shakedown.

I think that the LMS system retains all the qualities of the current KO system while mitigating some (but not even close to all) of its variance, as well as resolving a couple additional issues (namely the KO stages being too short, and the incentive to peek at others' results).

I would also like to point out that I am proposing these changes as someone who has directly benefited from the current format, and that I would rather compete in a format that resolves the current one's issues while retaining the core values of the TT event (cutthroat one-try competition against the field).

in my opinion, it would be fair and coherent to use the same system in playoffs than in group stage : each player get a number of points depending on his rank on the track, and half of the players are qualified depending on the number of points they earned. they would play on 2 tracks each time, except 3 tracks for the finals.
so that there would be an incensitive to get a good rank, but a bad chrono wouldn't be as awful as it is now (it's more possible to come back if you are 10 points behind than if you are 30sec behind)

I would argue that this does not resolve any of the issues with the current format. If anything, the switch from total time to AF would change the emphasis of where variance occurs from complex tracks (like GV3) to simple tracks (like GV1), where a difference of a couple tenths can cost you a ton of AF and lead to unrecoverable situations.
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: clbrun le 27 avril 2019, à 12:57:56
Consider an extreme example: the entire TT competition is one try on one random track, with the results from that one track determining the entire ranking. This format is very high variance and would lead to many upsets, but it should be clear that this is not a desirable format for CDM.

this was more or less the first TT system we used : the whole TT competition was one try, with several players eliminated in the first tracks (because we were supposed to play 20 tracks, the 20th being the great final), and we changed the whole system after some "injustices" (namely scoub being eliminated because he was the nly one who missed the zoomstart on MC1 ::) ) who are likely to occur with your (lafungo's) proposal.
i think a large part of players think the one try system was worse than the actual one (especially the first eliminated players who had to wait very long until the TT is over...), even for the playoffs

in my opinion, it is also not very satisfying to play plafoffs rounds on just one track. it is a bit like if we played just one track/map in MR / BM / GP... maybe we should even play 3 track instead of just 2...
so i still prefer my proposal, but i am not very objective because i know that i am always wright  ::)

Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: Moll le 27 avril 2019, à 13:27:24
For me the thing that needs to be cleaned up is the 'cheating' that is so evidently going on during the knockout rounds of TT with players actively going round and checking others times before starting their runs. My personal preference would be to get rid of the big group knockout rounds and make the time trial knockout rounds seeded 1v1 matches like all the other modes in a best of X tracks format.
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: SparksF1 le 27 avril 2019, à 13:44:38
For me the thing that needs to be cleaned up is the 'cheating' that is so evidently going on during the knockout rounds of TT with players actively going round and checking others times before starting their runs. My personal preference would be to get rid of the big group knockout rounds and make the time trial knockout rounds seeded 1v1 matches like all the other modes in a best of X tracks format.

So 1v16 2v15 etc?

An little addition to that. Play best of 5 alternating turns and in the first match the top seed goes first. Then on the subsequent tracks it’s the fastest player on previous track that goes first. Kind of like having the honor on the tee in golf
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: clbrun le 27 avril 2019, à 13:51:33
For me the thing that needs to be cleaned up is the 'cheating' that is so evidently going on during the knockout rounds of TT with players actively going round and checking others times before starting their runs.

i agree 1000%
players should play each track without knowing how well the others did, so that they don't know if they can play safe or if they have to fight to for qualification
this would be solved with one try system (obviously), but also with mine because even if a player fell 4 times in GV3, he may be just one or two rank behind another player who played it safe (so just 1 or 2 points to catch up, instead of 20seconds)

i'm not fond of a 1vs1 playoff system though... TT is not a versus mode, so i think it's more logical to compare your perf against all other players (like in group stage)
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: Antistar le 27 avril 2019, à 22:40:27
For me the thing that needs to be cleaned up is the 'cheating' that is so evidently going on during the knockout rounds of TT with players actively going round and checking others times before starting their runs.

i agree 1000%

I've been asking for having some kind of TT-dedicated referee(s) for years to help this stage being run properly. I've given up, but I'd be extremely happy if things could be sorted out after all of those years.
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: tif le 29 avril 2019, à 00:35:15
For me the thing that needs to be cleaned up is the 'cheating' that is so evidently going on during the knockout rounds of TT with players actively going round and checking others times before starting their runs. My personal preference would be to get rid of the big group knockout rounds and make the time trial knockout rounds seeded 1v1 matches like all the other modes in a best of X tracks format.

I don't disagree with the need to stop people from checking other players' times however making 1v1 knockout rounds for a TT competition -regardless of the game- doesn't really make sense to me as the point of the mode is to perform on a track with no in-game interference from your opponent, something that contradicts the very essence of a 1v1 confrontation. I think Lafungo's idea is the way to go as it solves the problem at hand without creating a new one at least none that I could think of.
Titre: Time Trial format changes
Posté par: KVD le 29 avril 2019, à 12:57:52
I'm in favour of the Last Man / Person Standing system that Lafungo has proposed. I also feel that some of the points that have been raised against it have some merits though. If we're really going to expand the KO stage by that many rounds, it will allow (and even stimulate) top players to play more safely through the first ~75% of that. Only one person will get eliminated anyway and you'd need to do very badly at first to be that one. In a way the entire group stage is like that too though, so it's not a huge problem.
Perhaps a system can be devised where at least more than 1 person per round drops off (and perhaps not 1 track but 2 per round?). A bit like a mix of the LM system and the current one, trying to combine the best of both worlds. Though then the next track would need to be started instantly to avoid the screen cheating thing.


i'm not fond of a 1vs1 playoff system though... TT is not a versus mode, so i think it's more logical to compare your perf against all other players (like in group stage)

Agreed with Tif and Cedric here. TT is the opportunity to really have a global competition that allows direct comparisons vs everyone. Doing 1 v 1 systems in TT to me would feel like an attempt to increase variance in an artificial / forced manner.

About the cheating thing, that can very easily be resolved. Just let each KO player have a dedicated timekeeper/referee, exactly as in group stage, and let all players start at exactly the same time. Done. We did this at ASMKC and it worked fine.  :)