Auteur Sujet: Réforme du Time Trial  (Lu 105709 fois)

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Réforme du Time Trial
« Réponse #450 le: 04 septembre 2019, à 14:16:25 »
I feel that next year is finally the year where we're gonna implement equal TT coefficients. The time is ripe for it, many karters on WhatsApp and Discord have been arguing for it and have voiced explicitly that it's nonsensical to reward TT less than the other modes.

A quote from Adam Ferguson that hits the nail on the head imo:
"Decathlon in the olympics, sorry, we know your best mode is discus, but we decided not to make that worth as much as the rest of the events"

Perhaps we need the expand to TT format a little bit to accompany this, there's plenty of time to discuss it this time around.  :D

::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

je note quand meme que le camp des anti-TT s'est joliment fait enfler :
2002 : pas de TT
2003 : pas de TT
2004 : introduction du TT, qui initialement ne devait pas compter au général. finalement le TT a compté coef 1
2005 : ajout de bonifications
2008 : tous les modes au meme coef
2009 : ajustement des coefs : TT coef 4, GP coef 3, BM 2, MR 1
2010 : suppression des autres modes : le TT dure 4 jours  :-X
2011 : a la demande de la Grande-Bretagne et des Pays-Bas, Nicolas Sarkozy déclare les modes multiplayers de SMK illégaux.  :-X

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Réforme du Time Trial
« Réponse #451 le: 04 septembre 2019, à 16:41:23 »
je note quand meme que le camp des anti-TT s'est joliment fait enfler :
2011 : a la demande de la Grande-Bretagne et des Pays-Bas, Nicolas Sarkozy déclare les modes multiplayers de SMK illégaux.  :-X

;D ;D ;D ;D

Brilliant! He was only 8 years off!  ::) ::) ::) ::)

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« Réponse #452 le: 04 septembre 2019, à 22:43:42 »
I'm heavily pro equal coefficient for all modes.
I dont understand why it hasnt been the case so far to be quite honest.
SMK has 4 modes and of these 4 tt is the most played by people at home.
It is also the main if not the only metric people use to track their skills.

If the argument is that tt day lasts less long, that can be changed, but even if we dont change the length of tt day, the importance of a mode is not defined by a random choice of how long that segment of the tournament lasts.
I would say the importance should be defined by how much preperation goes in it, which as I said is the most for tt.
If the way we tackle tt should be changed can be debated upon of course, for instance to make the element of surprise a bit smaller.
Having said that, I think tt this year with lms was very exciting and apart from some minor issues, a big succes.

But most of all, let's not kid ourselves, without tt in smk the game would have been dead already.
It is THE reason for the vast majority to keep playing (this intensely anyay).

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Réforme du Time Trial
« Réponse #453 le: 05 septembre 2019, à 05:37:19 »
But most of all, let's not kid ourselves, without tt in smk the game would have been dead already.
It is THE reason for the vast majority to keep playing (this intensely anyay).

I don't 100% agree on this, sorry. I think it's a bit like that good old "coming for the game, staying for the people" : without Time Trial, this community would certainly not exist (and so, CDM would not exist, of course). But I think what made the competition keep on living is the multiplayer part of it.

This said, I've always advocated for TT as an equally represented mode, even when I was president of FFSMK, but knew the biggest part of the community (which turned out to be French, back in those years ;D) was strongly against it. I'm entirely OK if we finally manage to have all modes equal even if TT is a 1-player mode – after all, it's not as if that mode was full of surprises every year, eh? Since the beginning of TT at SMK championships, there have been only 8 regular medalists (including Franck's two "surprise" medals in the two first years) in 16 editions, Chris Wild being the only one able to get bronze once. The 7 others have all been part of Sami's site top 4 at some moment in the last 15 years. This means TT is not an unbalanced mode that could lead to major surprises and big unexpected points from underdogs.

So yeah, equal coefficient for all, let's roll baby!
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Réforme du Time Trial
« Réponse #454 le: 05 septembre 2019, à 11:15:56 »
I feel that next year is finally the year where we're gonna implement equal TT coefficients. The time is ripe for it, many karters on WhatsApp and Discord have been arguing for it and have voiced explicitly that it's nonsensical to reward TT less than the other modes.

A quote from Adam Ferguson that hits the nail on the head imo:
"Decathlon in the olympics, sorry, we know your best mode is discus, but we decided not to make that worth as much as the rest of the events"

Perhaps we need the expand to TT format a little bit to accompany this, there's plenty of time to discuss it this time around.  :D

*@Narnet, Moll & co: even with equal coefficients, this normalization for the group stage based on the number of participants would still need to be done, of course. And of course I wholeheartedly agree with results transparency. No brainer that needs to be fixed for 2020.

Make the coefficient the same like it was in ASMKC, and make Time Trial longer, more towards a full day (still not as long as the other modes though). The knockout stages can be first to x number of one tries, like the multiplayer modes have. Then a fast player won't eliminate quickly just from zoom start misses or an unfortunate crash. Unless it happens on every track, then that is their problem. Think Match Race, if it was a sudden death 1 race only for the final and someone gets a lightning... yeah enough said. Karel lol, do you remember that side Tournament in Strasbourg 2016 that guy ran, and the final was... first to 1 race  ;D on Mario Kart 8. More like Mario Kart seal-your-fate  :-X ;D

You can have a 1st vs 16th do x number of Time Trial Tracks (2nd vs 15th and so on). They just need to be sitting away from each other on TVs 1 to 16 so they cant see what their 'rival' has done on certain tracks. Each TV (player) also has to have a supervisor noting the times. It could be 5 Time Trial tracks. Then you can do the same with first to 7, 9, 11. Include barrages as well with first to 3 - 4 if you want.

With the Semi's / Finals / 3rd place I guess if it is on the double stream the updates can be done on the system quickly. Both players wont really know how their opponent is doing and it may not be clear for the audience either but they can announce quickly who has won based on totals or whatever. This would take longer meaning a near full day is needed. Just an idea, feel free to bin it and never speak of it again if you want.

I dont mind the previous two track format where we can all go bungee jumping without a bungee on Ghost Valley 3 Top 16  :P Or the last person standing format. It was nice to have a new variety of players fight it out in the Top 8 onwards as Karel, Julien and I were out in 2018 early though, but I know many didn't like certain tracks like that causing a mass elimination in a round. But just in case anyone wants to do the above instead, have a think about it? If not thats fine, scrap the idea and do something else.
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Réforme du Time Trial
« Réponse #455 le: 05 septembre 2019, à 15:14:22 »
The more I think about it, the better your idea sounds, Sami. Thanks!  8)

We want equal representation / coefficients (well most of us do anyway) for all modes, but I also agree that TT then needs to be accompanied by a more serious setup; a lot more like the other modes than is the case currently. The way you described sounds very good actually. We can get away with a slightly shorter format than the multiplayer modes, as TT as a mode has inherently less variance (no items, more forgiving zoomstarts, etc). But the 1-try, 1 track and you're gone is too extreme to the short side. I think we all see that now.

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« Réponse #456 le: 05 septembre 2019, à 16:47:29 »
I am very much against any TT format that involves 1v1 matchups. One of the main unique aspects of TT compared to the 2P modes is that we can directly compare performances across the entire field, and discarding that at CDM seems preposterous to me.

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Réforme du Time Trial
« Réponse #457 le: 05 septembre 2019, à 17:03:50 »
It undeniably worked well at the MK64 Championships though. And it would mimic the structures that the other modes have more. Added bonus is the extra hype created by a 1v1 matchup. I wrote a few months ago that you'd artificially inflate variance that way and though that'd still be true, a little extra variance won't hurt if we truly set out to expand the TT format.

The alternative is just playing more tracks per round during KO stage. I definitely think we wanna keep it at 1-tries (per round per track). Nothing like 5 minutes per track for best time or multiple attempts on the same track, which are both 'harder' to monitor and less exciting (imo).

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« Réponse #458 le: 05 septembre 2019, à 17:21:41 »
I'd definitely rather extend the LKS system than switch to a 1v1 structure. There are a bunch of different ways we could go about such an extension. An obvious way that's already been brought up is to play multiple tracks per round (aggregated on either total time or AF), but that's not the only option. For example, players could be given a number of lives based on how well they did in group stage and the last player in each round would lose a life rather than be directly eliminated. An example of a life distribution system could be something like: 4 lives for GS #1-4, 3 lives for GS #5-8, 2 lives for GS #9-12, and 1 life for GS #13-16. Such a distribution would lead to a KO stage with 36-39 rounds (depending on how many lives the winner is left with).

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Réforme du Time Trial
« Réponse #459 le: 05 septembre 2019, à 17:41:27 »
different lives depending how you did in group stage sounds like a horrible idea to me, would eliminate pretty much all of the varience that makes the TT 1 tries interesting imo
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« Réponse #460 le: 05 septembre 2019, à 20:48:51 »
It doesn't have to be 1v1 literally it was just a throw it out there idea. Maybe it deserves to be in the trash, unless someone can make it a lot better.

Whatever it will be you guys decide and come up with some more ideas.

But in the end of the day, full equal coefficient -> some sort of more complete larger TT tournament with less sudden death element. It may yes eliminate the "Time Trial One Try" type thing and become just a "Time Trial" tournament. We do often just call it Time Trials, though when I tell people not from CDM about it, I have to clarify that it is "One Tries" which makes it very different.

If something has worked well for Mario Kart 64, take that into consideration. Maybe just look at any other differences with SMK though, track length or something?

Anyway, keep sharing any ideas :)

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Réforme du Time Trial
« Réponse #461 le: 06 septembre 2019, à 16:30:35 »
I feel that next year is finally the year where we're gonna implement equal TT coefficients. The time is ripe for it, many karters on WhatsApp and Discord have been arguing for it and have voiced explicitly that it's nonsensical to reward TT less than the other modes.

A quote from Adam Ferguson that hits the nail on the head imo:
"Decathlon in the olympics, sorry, we know your best mode is discus, but we decided not to make that worth as much as the rest of the events"

Perhaps we need the expand to TT format a little bit to accompany this, there's plenty of time to discuss it this time around.  :D

*@Narnet, Moll & co: even with equal coefficients, this normalization for the group stage based on the number of participants would still need to be done, of course. And of course I wholeheartedly agree with results transparency. No brainer that needs to be fixed for 2020.

Make the coefficient the same like it was in ASMKC, and make Time Trial longer, more towards a full day (still not as long as the other modes though). The knockout stages can be first to x number of one tries, like the multiplayer modes have. Then a fast player won't eliminate quickly just from zoom start misses or an unfortunate crash. Unless it happens on every track, then that is their problem. Think Match Race, if it was a sudden death 1 race only for the final and someone gets a lightning... yeah enough said. Karel lol, do you remember that side Tournament in Strasbourg 2016 that guy ran, and the final was... first to 1 race  ;D on Mario Kart 8. More like Mario Kart seal-your-fate  :-X ;D

You can have a 1st vs 16th do x number of Time Trial Tracks (2nd vs 15th and so on). They just need to be sitting away from each other on TVs 1 to 16 so they cant see what their 'rival' has done on certain tracks. Each TV (player) also has to have a supervisor noting the times. It could be 5 Time Trial tracks. Then you can do the same with first to 7, 9, 11. Include barrages as well with first to 3 - 4 if you want.

With the Semi's / Finals / 3rd place I guess if it is on the double stream the updates can be done on the system quickly. Both players wont really know how their opponent is doing and it may not be clear for the audience either but they can announce quickly who has won based on totals or whatever. This would take longer meaning a near full day is needed. Just an idea, feel free to bin it and never speak of it again if you want.

I dont mind the previous two track format where we can all go bungee jumping without a bungee on Ghost Valley 3 Top 16  :P Or the last person standing format. It was nice to have a new variety of players fight it out in the Top 8 onwards as Karel, Julien and I were out in 2018 early though, but I know many didn't like certain tracks like that causing a mass elimination in a round. But just in case anyone wants to do the above instead, have a think about it? If not thats fine, scrap the idea and do something else.

Les grands esprits se rencontrent, j'avais déjà eu une idée de ce type, il y a quelques années ^-^  ::) (la 1ère idée (et encore, en rayant le cumul des temps) ; la vache pour les 2 autres sinon : les trucs que je peux inventer, je me choque moi-même ! :o)



j'essayerai de t'envoyer des timbres à l'effigie de flo roger federer, le méga champion du monde de sa discipline.

sinon, j'ai encore eu d'autres idées ce week-end (pendant que je défonçais (modestement) tous mes records) :

alors, 1-ère nouvelle idée :
en ce qui concerne un mode avec play off, il me paraitrait juste que tout le monde joue les 20 courses, dans un ordre quelconque ou non, et à l'issue de ce "championnat", les 16 premiers seraient qualifiés, avec 8ème, 1/4, etc

affrontement sur le cumul au temps de 5 courses, soit tirées au sort, soit sur les courses des cups, dans l'odre ou non du jeu, ainsi, jusqu'au bout, les 20 courses serviraient à cette phase de play off.

avec cette solution, le TT deviendrait un monde à part entière, et on pourrait lui attribuer un coefficient équivalent aux autres modes (voire un 1,5 plutot que 1).

2-ème idée :
sur la base du système classique de TT, pour un nombre de joueurs inférieur ou égal à 21 : imaginer un repéchage sous forme de duel, où les 2 derniers seraient en balance. l'avant dernier mène 1-0, mais tous les 2 rejouent cette course : si le dernier termine 2-ème, il est définitivement éliminé. mais si il gagne, on fait une belle entre les 2, et le vainqueur continue à jouer. on pourrait imaginer qu'un dernier n'ait droit qu'à un seul repéchage durant le TT, ce qui limiterait ces phases de sauvetage.
avec + de 21 joueurs, il faudrait faire jouer plus que les 2 derniers, en attribuant des demi-repéchages pour un avant dernier ou dernier, par rapport à l'antépénultième qui serait réquisitionné pour ce "triel". demi repéchage, car être 2 fois dans les 2 derniers à une course à 2 éliminés pourrait équivaloir au fait d'etre dernier d'une course à 1 seul éliminé : me suis-je bien fait comprendre  ;D mdr.

et on pourrait faire ça jusqu'à ce qu'il n'y ait plus que 8 joueurs en course, auquel cas on reprendrait le déroulement classique du TT.

avec ce mode, si un grand champion se troue sur une course, il peut se sauver, mais va falloir qu'il pose ses cojones sur la console  ;)

et ça m'a fait penser à une 3-ème idée, mais qui n'est pas très "juste", c'est juste pour le fun  :
meme chose, mais avec un mode défi-challenge : le dernier d'une course choisit contre qui il veut faire son duel et pas forcément le dernier. un grand champion qui serait le roi d'une course pourrait faire exprès de finir dernier de cette course, provoque en duel la tete de série numéro 1 (flo par exemple, ou kartie) et c'est quitte ou double  8). Et hop, débarrasssé de son adversaire le + coriace sur sa course.
enfin voilà, c'est juste pour le joke.

voili, voilou, je crois avoir fait le tour des idées de TT  :)

Par contre, j'en resterais à seulement 5 courses à chaque tour (le 1er à 3, donc) sur les 1/8, 1/2, demi et finale. Et éventuellement des Q1 et Q2 avec 3 courses (premier à 2).
Et comme il y a 11 ans, je pense toujours qu'avec un format de ce type, je passerais le coeff du TT de 1 à 1,5 et non pas à 2. Parce que comme le disait déjà Clbrun à l'époque, justement en réponse au post précédent que j'ai auto-cité précédemment :

et puis pour ma part, le TT n aura jamais le meme coeff que les autres modes, pour la simple et bonne raison que ce n est pas un mode d affrontement direct  :-\ donc coeff 1 pour le TT et 2 pour les autres, c est deja beaucoup pour le TT  :-X ::)

Quel grand homme  0:) >:D.
Et je pense toujours comme lui :
a) pas d'affrontement direct, même si ici les télés seraient côte à côte (enfin, peut-être ; je ne sais pas à quoi pensait Sami exactement, quand au placement des 2 concurrents ? Mais vu la finale de TT de cette année, ça aurait de la gueule comme ça).
b) Pas d'option à gérer.
c) Et même avec tous ces trucs pour rallonger la sauce, jouer le TT prend 2 fois moins de temps qu'un mode 2 Players.
Malgré les arguments de Mike sur cette fameuse durée qui ne devrait pas être un argument, ben pour moi, si.
Et le CDM n'est pas exactement comme un "quadrathlon", le TT ne doit pas valoir autant que les autres, enfin, pour moi ; c'est un peu comme si tu disais au bac, tu passes les Maths et l'EPS, alors ils doivent valoir le même coefficient : bé non ! :eclair:
« Modifié: 06 septembre 2019, à 16:35:39 par Narnet »
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« Réponse #462 le: 07 septembre 2019, à 00:42:30 »
But most of all, let's not kid ourselves, without tt in smk the game would have been dead already.
It is THE reason for the vast majority to keep playing (this intensely anyay).

I don't 100% agree on this, sorry. I think it's a bit like that good old "coming for the game, staying for the people" : without Time Trial, this community would certainly not exist (and so, CDM would not exist, of course). But I think what made the competition keep on living is the multiplayer part of it.

This said, I've always advocated for TT as an equally represented mode, even when I was president of FFSMK, but knew the biggest part of the community (which turned out to be French, back in those years ;D) was strongly against it. I'm entirely OK if we finally manage to have all modes equal even if TT is a 1-player mode – after all, it's not as if that mode was full of surprises every year, eh? Since the beginning of TT at SMK championships, there have been only 8 regular medalists (including Franck's two "surprise" medals in the two first years) in 16 editions, Chris Wild being the only one able to get bronze once. The 7 others have all been part of Sami's site top 4 at some moment in the last 15 years. This means TT is not an unbalanced mode that could lead to major surprises and big unexpected points from underdogs.

So yeah, equal coefficient for all, let's roll baby!
You rate my opinions so highly that you feel the need to apologise for not 100% agreeing? :o
Anyway, its fine disagreeing, but I wanted to stress the importance off tt and the dsicrepancy between importance of tt in general versus its importance at CDM.

I also wanted to bring in another idea.
If we prolong the cay, I feel we need to give people outside the top 16 to play more as well.
Right now its half an hour for all players not qualified for top 16 and only making the format of the top 16 longer seems like a bad idea to me.

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« Réponse #463 le: 07 septembre 2019, à 08:03:42 »
But most of all, let's not kid ourselves, without tt in smk the game would have been dead already.
It is THE reason for the vast majority to keep playing (this intensely anyay).

I don't 100% agree on this, sorry. I think it's a bit like that good old "coming for the game, staying for the people" : without Time Trial, this community would certainly not exist (and so, CDM would not exist, of course). But I think what made the competition keep on living is the multiplayer part of it.

This said, I've always advocated for TT as an equally represented mode, even when I was president of FFSMK, but knew the biggest part of the community (which turned out to be French, back in those years ;D) was strongly against it. I'm entirely OK if we finally manage to have all modes equal even if TT is a 1-player mode – after all, it's not as if that mode was full of surprises every year, eh? Since the beginning of TT at SMK championships, there have been only 8 regular medalists (including Franck's two "surprise" medals in the two first years) in 16 editions, Chris Wild being the only one able to get bronze once. The 7 others have all been part of Sami's site top 4 at some moment in the last 15 years. This means TT is not an unbalanced mode that could lead to major surprises and big unexpected points from underdogs.

So yeah, equal coefficient for all, let's roll baby!
You rate my opinions so highly that you feel the need to apologise for not 100% agreeing? :o
Anyway, its fine disagreeing, but I wanted to stress the importance off tt and the dsicrepancy between importance of tt in general versus its importance at CDM.

I also wanted to bring in another idea.
If we prolong the cay, I feel we need to give people outside the top 16 to play more as well.
Right now its half an hour for all players not qualified for top 16 and only making the format of the top 16 longer seems like a bad idea to me.

As CDM is growing and we could see the days when 60 plus players attend then a Top 32 can be created where any brackets or barrages extend to. Or at least for 24 like in the multiplayer modes.
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« Réponse #464 le: 07 septembre 2019, à 12:08:18 »
About the unequal coefficient thing, the main problem I have with it is that the arguments for it are so arbitrary. Who decides which argument merits value and should be the one argument that dictates the weighting?

Sure, TT is not a mode of direct confrontation. But why does that have to equate to it being rewarded less? There just as many arguments that one can dream up that would justify rewarding TT more instead of less. For example the total amount of time that people have invested in TT versus the other modes (in other words higher overall skill level reached). Or the decreased variance of the mode (no  :eclair:, etc.). Or the fact that TT is used by most karters as their measuring stick of improvement throughout the year. Or the fact that perhaps the majority of participants that are there are primarily TT players (Martin told me in private he wouldn't even go if there was no TT tournament). And so on and so on.

Note that I am not trying to argue that TT should have a higher coeff (deja vu to the Sarkozy post of el Nico  ;D) than the other modes, but rather I am trying to demonstrate that you can pick any old argument and twist it to whichever coefficient system you want to support*. Therefore the only fair solution is, rather obviously, shortcutting any such discussions altogether by just implementing equal coefficients for all modes. No justification one way or the other is needed, because it's just the logical standard condition to begin with.


*just 1 more example, one could write a big essay on how BM should be rewarded with more points, because you are making 10 times as many decisions per time unit, constantly having to rethink your next move, position, opponent weapon, your weapon, etc. Or completely the opposite way, you could argue BM should be rewarded less as it's not a racing mode and the primary goal of real life karting happens to be racing. Theoretically there is an endless list of considerations to make once you open the door to different weighting systems. Therefore, I suggest we do the only thing that makes any sense and just close that door for good.
« Modifié: 07 septembre 2019, à 12:20:50 par KVD »