Auteur Sujet: Réforme du Time Trial  (Lu 105700 fois)

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« Réponse #465 le: 07 septembre 2019, à 12:38:49 »
I stand with TT and it's fight for equality and equal recognition.
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« Réponse #466 le: 07 septembre 2019, à 15:29:59 »
About the unequal coefficient thing, the main problem I have with it is that the arguments for it are so arbitrary. Who decides which argument merits value and should be the one argument that dictates the weighting?

Sure, TT is not a mode of direct confrontation. But why does that have to equate to it being rewarded less? There just as many arguments that one can dream up that would justify rewarding TT more instead of less. For example the total amount of time that people have invested in TT versus the other modes (in other words higher overall skill level reached). Or the decreased variance of the mode (no  :eclair:, etc.). Or the fact that TT is used by most karters as their measuring stick of improvement throughout the year. Or the fact that perhaps the majority of participants that are there are primarily TT players (Martin told me in private he wouldn't even go if there was no TT tournament). And so on and so on.

Note that I am not trying to argue that TT should have a higher coeff (deja vu to the Sarkozy post of el Nico  ;D) than the other modes, but rather I am trying to demonstrate that you can pick any old argument and twist it to whichever coefficient system you want to support*. Therefore the only fair solution is, rather obviously, shortcutting any such discussions altogether by just implementing equal coefficients for all modes. No justification one way or the other is needed, because it's just the logical standard condition to begin with.


*just 1 more example, one could write a big essay on how BM should be rewarded with more points, because you are making 10 times as many decisions per time unit, constantly having to rethink your next move, position, opponent weapon, your weapon, etc. Or completely the opposite way, you could argue BM should be rewarded less as it's not a racing mode and the primary goal of real life karting happens to be racing. Theoretically there is an endless list of considerations to make once you open the door to different weighting systems. Therefore, I suggest we do the only thing that makes any sense and just close that door for good.

Agreed with Moll and Karel

And not to worry Mike, 3/4 of the CDM is multiplayer modes and we all have the same enjoyment and fulfillment out of it every year so nothing changes or gets worse there at all.
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« Réponse #467 le: 08 septembre 2019, à 08:57:37 »
I can't believe you are all arguing over by far the most boring mode in SMK. If I had my way we'd never play TT at CDM anymore, and instead play a MM2 King of the Sponge tourno. Which would have an equal coefficient as its much better.

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« Réponse #468 le: 08 septembre 2019, à 10:04:27 »
I can't believe you are all arguing over by far the most boring mode in SMK. If I had my way we'd never play TT at CDM anymore, and instead play a MM2 King of the Sponge tourno. Which would have an equal coefficient as its much better.

There should have been a CDM for MM2 already! Why hasnt one been done? Everyone would take part I'm sure. Perhaps we should do that but also keep TT on for SMK. Or even better, get rid of Battle Mode too then we can have both racing modes, MM2 and throw in Stunt Race FX  ;D  because they are all racing games after all. So there be 4 racing modes.. 4 days of CDM sorted  8)

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« Réponse #469 le: 09 septembre 2019, à 17:46:18 »
About the unequal coefficient thing, the main problem I have with it is that the arguments for it are so arbitrary. Who decides which argument merits value and should be the one argument that dictates the weighting?

Sure, TT is not a mode of direct confrontation. But why does that have to equate to it being rewarded less? There just as many arguments that one can dream up that would justify rewarding TT more instead of less. For example the total amount of time that people have invested in TT versus the other modes (in other words higher overall skill level reached). Or the decreased variance of the mode (no  :eclair:, etc.). Or the fact that TT is used by most karters as their measuring stick of improvement throughout the year. Or the fact that perhaps the majority of participants that are there are primarily TT players (Martin told me in private he wouldn't even go if there was no TT tournament). And so on and so on.

Note that I am not trying to argue that TT should have a higher coeff (deja vu to the Sarkozy post of el Nico  ;D) than the other modes, but rather I am trying to demonstrate that you can pick any old argument and twist it to whichever coefficient system you want to support*. Therefore the only fair solution is, rather obviously, shortcutting any such discussions altogether by just implementing equal coefficients for all modes. No justification one way or the other is needed, because it's just the logical standard condition to begin with.


*just 1 more example, one could write a big essay on how BM should be rewarded with more points, because you are making 10 times as many decisions per time unit, constantly having to rethink your next move, position, opponent weapon, your weapon, etc. Or completely the opposite way, you could argue BM should be rewarded less as it's not a racing mode and the primary goal of real life karting happens to be racing. Theoretically there is an endless list of considerations to make once you open the door to different weighting systems. Therefore, I suggest we do the only thing that makes any sense and just close that door for good.

Totally agree with KVD. You can argue any features for any mode make that mode worthy/unworthy of equal points. E.g. In my opinion, TT is the fairest mode of all four modes, the least biased mode. It's purely based on the skill of the driver, no RNG except for Thwomps. No other mode is as equal as TT mode and therefore TT should be on level pegging with any other mode.

The only thing that needs to be considered is: TT is a mode of SMK, therefore, it should be equal to any other SMK mode. Thought doesn't need to progress past this point and I come back to my example of the olympics, each olympic sport in the decathlon or heptathlon is equal to the others, because each is an equal part that makes up the whole.

This is inequality in SMK :D But seriously, TT is a mode in SMK therefore is equal to any other mode. I can't see why there is an argument beyond that point, yet there is, and that is because people have personal preference which should be disregarded because TT is a mode of SMK and therefore equal to any other mode.

The only thing that should decide this is equality and equality is predecided.

« Modifié: 09 septembre 2019, à 17:54:24 par kepl3r »
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« Réponse #470 le: 09 septembre 2019, à 20:03:00 »
TT is 1-player mode only -> coef 1.
MR, BM and GP are 2-players modes -> coef 2.

And even if TT is a mode of SMK, he's not adapted to have its own entire day. If it has a lower coef, it's because it lasts twice smaller than other modes. And to be honest, even if I was a big fan of TT, I'm not sure we'll be able to find a way to make TT attractive for everyone, if he lasts 10 hours.
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« Réponse #471 le: 10 septembre 2019, à 08:38:40 »
TT is 1-player mode only -> coef 1.
MR, BM and GP are 2-players modes -> coef 2.

And even if TT is a mode of SMK, he's not adapted to have its own entire day. If it has a lower coef, it's because it lasts twice smaller than other modes. And to be honest, even if I was a big fan of TT, I'm not sure we'll be able to find a way to make TT attractive for everyone, if he lasts 10 hours.

Hi Alicia, how are you?  :)

That's what I was saying, if it can be made longer to cater for not having the sudden death element then it would be long enough to be coeff 2.

There's an old saying "it takes two to Tango".

See on Time Trial we still need the other person there to record the scores so it is still a little bit a 2 player affair  :)
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« Réponse #472 le: 10 septembre 2019, à 09:46:47 »
TT is 1-player mode only -> coef 1.
MR, BM and GP are 2-players modes -> coef 2.

I don't accept this logic. Who says the number of players per mode* should dictate the coeff? Shouldn't GP then have a coeff of 8? Is football worth more than tennis just because it fields more players?

I think we all agree that TT should then be made longer. And indeed it will be a challenge to do it in an appealing way. However, who are we kidding, most of us have played TT 100s if not 1000s of hours, so a few hours at CDM shouldn't put anyone's panties in a twist, really.  :P Doesn't need to be quite as long as the other modes either, as there is less inherent variance.

*this is besides the point that I'm actually arguing, but in TT you're effectively competing against the entire CDM field. Therefore, until the final (which is, finally, really 1 vs 1), a case could be made that the TT tournament is the most multiplayer mode of all modes at CDM. In the literal sense that the largest number of players are directly competing with eachother at the same time.
« Modifié: 10 septembre 2019, à 10:09:34 par KVD »

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« Réponse #473 le: 10 septembre 2019, à 10:34:22 »
I think we all agree that TT should then be made longer. And indeed it will be a challenge to do it in an appealing way. However, who are we kidding, most of us have played TT 100s if not 1000s of hours, so a few hours at CDM shouldn't put anyone's panties in a twist, really.  :P Doesn't need to be quite as long as the other modes either, as there is less inherent variance.

To be honest the CDM is long enough as it is. Trust me, when you do all the matches, on the last day you are so tired and bored of SMK that you don't even enjoy playing.
GP 2016 was the worst for this imo afaic (as it was my first time playing all matches), and this year and last year I felt the same again which is a shame because I really like GP. Neo told me (as it was his first time without playing all matches for a while) that he really felt the difference this year and enjoyed that. Every year I'm so bored of SMK at the end of CDM that I consider everytime to retire from CDM. So I'd rather go in the direction of reducing CDM play time length instead of increasing it...

Also TT is not direct confrontation since there are no interactions between players, that doesn't mean we can't do a TT competition and i'm fine witht that, but it will still remain an indirect confrontation as all players are playing against themselves, if they crash its all their fault and not from the others. Also lol at the "TT tournament is the most multiplayer mode of all modes at CDM"  ;D

Maybe you were joking when you told me this, but maybe we should go back to what was done in 2002-2003 and remove TT from CDM? As some of you mentionned, we have already the TT website to compete against eachother regarding TT for the whole year, but we have nothing for the other modes and no possiblities to compete against eachother. This was for this specific reason that CDF was created in the first place I believe.
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« Réponse #474 le: 10 septembre 2019, à 11:47:59 »
I honestly think that those should be the 2 options:
-TT equal
-no TT

Anything else is a cop out, as argued before. 0% joking.

Question though, do you think we should modify the CDM format to correspond to the wishes of just one player that plays the highest nr of matches? If more players feel this way, then fair enough. Personally, I'd be fine with playing more, but then I don't make every (or any...) top-4.  :P Let's see what the other regular top-4 guys say: Sami, Neo?

Obviously it needs to be a bearable schedule for every participant though. A first to 11 for a BM final feels quite long for example. Though it has resulted in some amazing scenarios in the past (including this year). Perhaps we can cut some flesh during some of the other days? As said before also, TT doesn't need to grow by THAT much (right?). And we'd make more time for it, relatively CDM schedule should be be less full.
« Modifié: 10 septembre 2019, à 11:54:14 par KVD »

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« Réponse #475 le: 10 septembre 2019, à 23:00:08 »
Question though, do you think we should modify the CDM format to correspond to the wishes of just one player that plays the highest nr of matches? If more players feel this way, then fair enough. Personally, I'd be fine with playing more, but then I don't make every (or any...) top-4.  :P Let's see what the other regular top-4 guys say: Sami, Neo?

100% agree with Scoub on this specific point. If I didn't deeply love this game and this championship, I'd also have retired from CDMs (and pretty much everything SMK-related then, as my activity throughout the year is close to zero nowadays) for years now. :-[
I think you can't understand this feeling if you're not in the shoes of the guy(s) who had to play all the matches all day and all night long during numerous years (13 fucking consecutive years, AFAIC).

That being said, I completely understand the need to play more for the other players, especially the rookies (that's probably the way I felt during my first championships, I couldn't get enough of that shit ;D), so maybe it's time to find something that could allow top players to play a little less ? To me the group stage is too long and has a few useless matches that could be skipped to gain time. But that's just me. I'd rather play less but longer matches against players with equal level than more short matches against players of different levels. It would also make draws more accurate for knock-out stage. Basically during the whole group stage, I'm just thinking "Ok, let's play another 14 matches just to get a top 4 or top 6 in quite a random order".
I don't know, maybe it's time to modify deeply the system ? Why not trying the double elimination system ? That's probably another discussion to have.

About the coefficients, I have to admit that I don't quite know which side to choose...
First of all, I think we have to keep a TT event at CDM: yes, the TT site exists for TT competition throughout the year, but the players' site ranking doesn't necessarily reflect the actual shape/form of the players during a specific CDM (not sure my english is clear enough here: for example, you can be and remain #7 on the TT site, and yet have trained a lot during a specific year and win gold at CDM).

I don't want the TT event to be longer than it is (mostly for reasons explained on top of this message), and that's what make me sceptical about the TT coefficient being equal to the others modes. You make one small mistake, or get all thwomps down at BC3 ? Ok, tournament done for you, sorry about the xxx points you just lost (compared to your direct opponents) for messing up one corner alone. :P :-X
I probably wouldn't mind TT coef being equal to the others if TT was played longer, but:
1) that's not what I wish because CDM is always really long
2) I don't think it would make TT more appealing (but let's just hope someone finds a way to play it a little longer and still be fun and enjoyable)

I understand the logic "TT is a mode of SMK, then it should have the same coef", but I do not think it is something that must be accepted as absolute truth in this case. I think the CDM (and the way points are earned) is just made like we wish to define it. After all, we also defined to give 1000 points for perfect group stage and 2000 points for the winner of a mode: why not 1500 and 1500 ? Why not 500 and 4000 ? We just defined the rules (and changed them on  few occasions) over the years as we thought it was good and balanced for our purposes. There is no absolute truth in this case, we just need to decide if TT has to be as important as the other modes in a CDM competition (taking into account as it is now, or as it could become if we change the way it's played).



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« Réponse #476 le: 10 septembre 2019, à 23:14:32 »
Given how many players come to cdm from time trials, I think if you removed TT you would also severly restrict your ability to bring in new players. Having that familiar mode (even if played in a different fashion to normal) is a great bridge in bring in those players.

The TT event can be lengthened without increasing the number of tracks that top players have to play. I think Paul suggested somewhere earlier seeding everyone into a LMS format from the group stages, with say those finishing say 25th-40th coming in to an initial LMS and when only 4 of those remains the players that finished 17th-24th enter and so on
« Modifié: 10 septembre 2019, à 23:17:30 par Moll »
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« Réponse #477 le: 11 septembre 2019, à 03:01:00 »
Pour avoir aussi fait l'intégralité des matches possibles entre le MR 2004 et le GP 2007 (qui plus est à une époque où on pouvait faire 20 matches en poule, et finir à 10 heures du matin), je dois avouer que je finissais vidée moi aussi. Et le stress de viser la gagne au général, nécessitant d'être au taquet tout le temps (là où la plupart des autres joueurs, je pense, ont au moins un mode où ils jouent plus relâchés car ils n'y ont pas d'objectif précis), n'arrangeait rien.
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« Réponse #478 le: 11 septembre 2019, à 12:23:17 »
Vraiment intéressant, toutes ces discussions ! (je vais m'exprimer en Français, je ne maitrise pas assez la langue de Shakespeare pour me lancer dans une longue réponse/discussion en anglais)

a) Coefficient(s) du TT : j'ai déà donné mon opinion. Et je ne nous vois pas rallonger le TT pour lui donner une "légitimité" en terme d'importance.
Genre on va faire 2 fois, ou +, une phase de poule, pour vraiment voir le niveau des joueurs. Ou alors on va faire pour chaque course un 2ème essai, voire +, dans le même sens. Au secours ... (don't say this idea is awesome, it's just a bad joke  :o ;D)

b) Introduire d'autres joueurs que le top 16, et comment (jusqu'à maintenant, l'explication que j'avais eu du Q1/Q2 dans les modes 2 Players et pas dans les autres, c'est que le SB n'est pas forcément précis, et reflète une "certaine" réalité. Alors que pour le TT, le système "Site de Sami" serait plutôt juste. Après, ça peut se discuter : pourquoi pas le cumul des temps (quelle aberration de pratiquer ça pendant des années sur 2 courses en phase finale, et pas sur 20 en phase de groupe ; c'est là que le classement Sami aurait été + pertinent : quel intérêt d'avoir une GV1/GV2 (et j'en passe) en face de n'importe quelle autre course !
Et pourquoi pas un système "Décathlon" (certains anglo-saxons m'ont bien excité, avec ça ! :D) ; genre donner un nombre de points par performance sur chaque course, comme le nombre de points concernant les Pal Standards, comme sur le site de Sami (mais ceux-ci ne sont pas linéaires ; au vrai décathlon non plus, mais on n'en est pas loin).
Du coup, je suis en train de m'amuser actuellement (tant que je n'ai pas de copies, je peux me permettre) à voir ce que donneraient les phases de groupe de TT depuis 2011, avec ce système ; afin de voir également les perfs Standard de chacun, et qui a réalisé la meilleure depuis 2011 (2011 va être mis en ligne "demain"  ::)). Je vais me servir de tout ça pour retenir la meilleurs performance de chacun (en "Standard"), et voir ce que donnerait un TT géant avec tout le monde au top de sa forme 8) (et ainsi définir un ranking TT CDM, pour placer "équitablement" les karters sur les télés (à part pour le top 6-8, où j'ai un fait un peu d'alternance cette année avec un certain critère (les karters dans le top 10 "global" de MC1  ^-^ pour attribuer les 6 premiers postes)). Jey Et Salim ne "méritaient" pas forcément d'être punis en étant en doublette avec Sami et Mario (z'ont qu'à vraiment être au niveau qu'ils sont censés avoir, en jouant un minimum sérieusement en TT, les vilains garnements  ;D).
J'ai quelques idées pour un rallongement de TT pour des joueurs au delà du top 16 (mais sans non plus concerner tout le monde ; je retiendrais le top 24 comme base, comme dans les autres modes). Mais c'était sympa dans les Championnats de Belgique de concerner tout le monde en phase finale ! :D (je vais manger, donc "demain" aussi, mes idées  ::))

c) la durée du CDM pour ceux qui doivent tout faire, ou presque
C'est clair que ça doit être méga lourd .... non seulement la durée, mais la pression qui va avec ... juste à (un très petit) titre personnel, en GP, en 2017, devoir faire les 14 matchs de poule, et enchainer ensuite mon barrage contre Drew, et enchainer ensuite dans la foulée 3 cups contre Clbrun m'a littéralement vidé  :-X.
après, il y l'age aussi : 44 ans à l'époque, et croyez moi, c'est pas la même qu'à 34 ans, où on pouvait effectivement se faire du 22 matchs de poule tranquillement ou presque !  :D
Premier être humain à avoir 960 temps répertoriés sur le site de Djo
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« Réponse #479 le: 11 septembre 2019, à 13:14:33 »
Basically during the whole group stage, I'm just thinking "Ok, let's play another 14 matches just to get a top 4 or top 6 in quite a random order".
I don't know, maybe it's time to modify deeply the system ? Why not trying the double elimination system ? That's probably another discussion to have.

That's how I feel in group stage too, completely. The outcomes of important group stage matches are extremely volatile (that's not a bad thing perse, but it doesn't justify spending so much time on it, perhaps). I'd obviously be in favour of trying a double elimination system, and/or expand group stage to a best of 5 rather than BO4 (that way BM and MR are also the same length as a GP cup.  ::) #OCD). It's another discussion to be had, I guess we have to have some votes about these topics down the line.

100% agree with Scoub on this specific point. If I didn't deeply love this game and this championship, I'd also have retired from CDMs (and pretty much everything SMK-related then, as my activity throughout the year is close to zero nowadays) for years now. :-[
I think you can't understand this feeling if you're not in the shoes of the guy(s) who had to play all the matches all day and all night long during numerous years (13 fucking consecutive years, AFAIC).

To me this still feels a little bit like if Roger Federer would complain that he never gets eliminated before quarter finals for over a decade.  ::)  ;D
If you can't handle it, it will automatically fix itself, as your performance would decrease and you wouldn't have to play that many matches.  ::) ::) It's natural selection basically. That may sound harsh, but it's coming from a player who tends to play less well towards the end of a tournament day. I don't have the focus stamina that some of you guys have and that's ok, as it's another one of the ingredients that is being tested, actually.

Anyway, matches played was 60 for you in 2015 and 60 again for both ScouB and you in 2016. In 2019 it's been already a bit decreased to 54 max (for ScouB and Sami). In 2012 the highest number was reached (64 for Neo!); personally I played 59 that year. It don't remember it feeling extra tiring. I don't mind playing 50+ games that much, personally what is more important for me is sufficient hours and quality of sleep. No Championnat will ever be as tiring for me as the 2007 one therefore.  :-X :-X

Again, I really wonder whether playing a few more rounds of TT is going to impact on this at all. My gut feeling says it would be negligible.
Also, in all likelihood, adding a double elimination system will rather increase than decrease the number of confrontations. With that being said, the length of the matches also matters of course. Playing a final is basically equivalent to playing 5 group stage matches right now. Perhaps the lengths can be tweaked a bit too. A lot to think about.  0:)

I understand the logic "TT is a mode of SMK, then it should have the same coef", but I do not think it is something that must be accepted as absolute truth in this case. I think the CDM (and the way points are earned) is just made like we wish to define it.

I think in the end it boils down to this. I personally focus on the arguments brought up against TT equal weighting as to my ears they sound completely bogus. And I'm happy to see you at least sided with the equal coeff from a logical point of view. But in the end it's not the arguments that matter, it's what we want the CDM to be. That's the nail on the head in your post.  :eclair:
We are going to have to decide this via a vote at some point. It seems inescapable. Not a forum poll.....lol. Probably an email vote to ffsmk email address would be the best method of doing this. So ScouB and me (and whoever) can personally validate the votes. No pseudo accounts and karter gfs voting, just people that have already participated in CDMs and have the expressed desire to attend the 2020 one. Should be easy enough to moderate.  :)

Thoughts?



« Modifié: 11 septembre 2019, à 13:38:37 par KVD »