Auteur Sujet: Réforme du Time Trial  (Lu 103908 fois)

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Réforme du Time Trial
« Réponse #480 le: 12 septembre 2019, à 14:25:24 »
Basically during the whole group stage, I'm just thinking "Ok, let's play another 14 matches just to get a top 4 or top 6 in quite a random order".
I don't know, maybe it's time to modify deeply the system ? Why not trying the double elimination system ? That's probably another discussion to have.

That's how I feel in group stage too, completely. The outcomes of important group stage matches are extremely volatile (that's not a bad thing perse, but it doesn't justify spending so much time on it, perhaps). I'd obviously be in favour of trying a double elimination system, and/or expand group stage to a best of 5 rather than BO4 (that way BM and MR are also the same length as a GP cup.  ::) #OCD). It's another discussion to be had, I guess we have to have some votes about these topics down the line.


Vous voulez dire que vous préféreriez un système avec directement une phase éliminatoire ?!
Et quand vous parlez de tournoi à double élimination, vous parlez de celui genre tournoi de Judo des JO (où quelqu'un qui perd une fois peut encore jouer la médaille de bronze ?), ou le tournoi "de base", où tu peux encore gagner l'or, si tu vas en finale des perdants, et que tu affrontes le vainqueur "des vainqueurs" (mais en devant le battre 2 fois pour justifier une victoire finale ?). Effectivement, avec ça, on va rallonger la sauce, et ça va être dur à "comprendre".
Et ça impliquerait, quelque soit le modèle choisi, que tous les matchs de phase finale aient la même durée ? (soit en moyenne, 1er à 8 en MR et BM, et 1er à 3 cups en GP).

Pour les matchs de poule de MR et de BM en 5 courses/arènes, c'est une blague, c'est ça ? Sinon, pour les journées de BM avec 2 fois la map 4, il faudra prévoir des cordes pour se perdre, quand on devra patienter un quart d'heure pour qu'un match se finisse .... pas l'idéal pour diminuer la durée des phases de poule ::).



100% agree with Scoub on this specific point. If I didn't deeply love this game and this championship, I'd also have retired from CDMs (and pretty much everything SMK-related then, as my activity throughout the year is close to zero nowadays) for years now. :-[
I think you can't understand this feeling if you're not in the shoes of the guy(s) who had to play all the matches all day and all night long during numerous years (13 fucking consecutive years, AFAIC).

To me this still feels a little bit like if Roger Federer would complain that he never gets eliminated before quarter finals for over a decade.  ::)  ;D
If you can't handle it, it will automatically fix itself, as your performance would decrease and you wouldn't have to play that many matches.  ::) ::) It's natural selection basically. That may sound harsh, but it's coming from a player who tends to play less well towards the end of a tournament day. I don't have the focus stamina that some of you guys have and that's ok, as it's another one of the ingredients that is being tested, actually.

Anyway, matches played was 60 for you in 2015 and 60 again for both ScouB and you in 2016. In 2019 it's been already a bit decreased to 54 max (for ScouB and Sami). In 2012 the highest number was reached (64 for Neo!); personally I played 59 that year. It don't remember it feeling extra tiring. I don't mind playing 50+ games that much, personally what is more important for me is sufficient hours and quality of sleep. No Championnat will ever be as tiring for me as the 2007 one therefore.  :-X :-X

Again, I really wonder whether playing a few more rounds of TT is going to impact on this at all. My gut feeling says it would be negligible.
Also, in all likelihood, adding a double elimination system will rather increase than decrease the number of confrontations. With that being said, the length of the matches also matters of course. Playing a final is basically equivalent to playing 5 group stage matches right now. Perhaps the lengths can be tweaked a bit too. A lot to think about.  0:)


Attention, ce que tu (Karel) appelles "match", ce sont aussi bien un match de poule qu'un affrontement de phase finale : une finale allant à 11-10 n'est pas équivalent à un 8ème gagné 5-0. Faudrait presque faire des conversions en unités de base (matchs de poule de MR-BM ou cup) pour avoir une idée + "précise" de ce que ça représente.
Malgré tout, tout jouer du début à la fin, c'est effectivement beaucoup :o.


I understand the logic "TT is a mode of SMK, then it should have the same coef", but I do not think it is something that must be accepted as absolute truth in this case. I think the CDM (and the way points are earned) is just made like we wish to define it.

I think in the end it boils down to this. I personally focus on the arguments brought up against TT equal weighting as to my ears they sound completely bogus. And I'm happy to see you at least sided with the equal coeff from a logical point of view. But in the end it's not the arguments that matter, it's what we want the CDM to be. That's the nail on the head in your post.  :eclair:
We are going to have to decide this via a vote at some point. It seems inescapable. Not a forum poll.....lol.

Probably an email vote to ffsmk email address would be the best method of doing this. So ScouB and me (and whoever) can personally validate the votes. No pseudo accounts and karter gfs voting, just people that have already participated in CDMs and have the expressed desire to attend the 2020 one. Should be easy enough to moderate.  :)

Thoughts?

rire jaune pour le "lol" ... bref, c'est fait c'est fait :poisson:

Un vote, par mail, de la part d'anciens joueurs de CDM, pourquoi pas.
Après, je serais + pour demander l'avis de joueurs ayant participé à un CDM dans les 5 dernières éditions, plutôt qu'à ceux qui vont peut-être hypothétiquement faire le prochain. Surtout que si c'est Alphen 3 ou un "Suze like", on n'aura pas forcément le même public, et l'avis d'anciens serait + représentatif de ce qu'on veut pour un CDM.
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« Réponse #481 le: 12 septembre 2019, à 15:08:29 »
Your first point, you're asking Neo right?  :)

Attention, ce que tu (Karel) appelles "match", ce sont aussi bien un match de poule qu'un affrontement de phase finale : une finale allant à 11-10 n'est pas équivalent à un 8ème gagné 5-0. Faudrait presque faire des conversions en unités de base (matchs de poule de MR-BM ou cup) pour avoir une idée + "précise" de ce que ça représente.

With that being said, the length of the matches also matters of course. Playing a final is basically equivalent to playing 5 group stage matches right now. Perhaps the lengths can be tweaked a bit too. A lot to think about.  0:)

Yes, that is what I wrote. Of course it matters. But the 60+ at CDM 2012 does probably equate to more rounds in any case.

Un vote, par mail, de la part d'anciens joueurs de CDM, pourquoi pas.
Après, je serais + pour demander l'avis de joueurs ayant participé à un CDM dans les 5 dernières éditions, plutôt qu'à ceux qui vont peut-être hypothétiquement faire le prochain. Surtout que si c'est Alphen 3 ou un "Suze like", on n'aura pas forcément le même public, et l'avis d'anciens serait + représentatif de ce qu'on veut pour un CDM.

One of the most logical things to do here is that we ask the attendees of the previous 3 editions. The people that are currently attending CDMs are the life and blood of the CDM and they are clearly the only ones affected by any format we choose to implement. Perhaps potential new attendees will not get the right to vote indeed. They have to earn their place in the community still and it is hard to determine whether a person is really going to join yes or no.
« Modifié: 12 septembre 2019, à 15:15:48 par KVD »

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« Réponse #482 le: 12 septembre 2019, à 16:31:46 »
Your first point, you're asking Neo right?  :)


Neo or You, if you think the same thing ?  ;)



Attention, ce que tu (Karel) appelles "match", ce sont aussi bien un match de poule qu'un affrontement de phase finale : une finale allant à 11-10 n'est pas équivalent à un 8ème gagné 5-0. Faudrait presque faire des conversions en unités de base (matchs de poule de MR-BM ou cup) pour avoir une idée + "précise" de ce que ça représente.

With that being said, the length of the matches also matters of course. Playing a final is basically equivalent to playing 5 group stage matches right now. Perhaps the lengths can be tweaked a bit too. A lot to think about.  0:)

Yes, that is what I wrote. Of course it matters. But the 60+ at CDM 2012 does probably equate to more rounds in any case.


Ah, okay. I was mostly reacting about BM and MR in 5 rounds, and not 4, in stage. I was asking if you don't like Draw/Tie ?  ;D


Un vote, par mail, de la part d'anciens joueurs de CDM, pourquoi pas.
Après, je serais + pour demander l'avis de joueurs ayant participé à un CDM dans les 5 dernières éditions, plutôt qu'à ceux qui vont peut-être hypothétiquement faire le prochain. Surtout que si c'est Alphen 3 ou un "Suze like", on n'aura pas forcément le même public, et l'avis d'anciens serait + représentatif de ce qu'on veut pour un CDM.

One of the most logical things to do here is that we ask the attendees of the previous 3 editions. The people that are currently attending CDMs are the life and blood of the CDM and they are clearly the only ones affected by any format we choose to implement. Perhaps potential new attendees will not get the right to vote indeed. They have to earn their place in the community still and it is hard to determine whether a person is really going to join yes or no.

3 is good too, yes : we would have 88 persons, the perfect number ! 8) ;D
I was thinking about people like Baptiste, Roach or Djo, who were with us "only" in 2016.
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« Réponse #483 le: 12 septembre 2019, à 22:51:31 »
Question though, do you think we should modify the CDM format to correspond to the wishes of just one player that plays the highest nr of matches? If more players feel this way, then fair enough. Personally, I'd be fine with playing more, but then I don't make every (or any...) top-4.  :P Let's see what the other regular top-4 guys say: Sami, Neo?

100% agree with Scoub on this specific point. If I didn't deeply love this game and this championship, I'd also have retired from CDMs (and pretty much everything SMK-related then, as my activity throughout the year is close to zero nowadays) for years now. :-[
I think you can't understand this feeling if you're not in the shoes of the guy(s) who had to play all the matches all day and all night long during numerous years (13 fucking consecutive years, AFAIC).

That being said, I completely understand the need to play more for the other players, especially the rookies (that's probably the way I felt during my first championships, I couldn't get enough of that shit ;D), so maybe it's time to find something that could allow top players to play a little less ? To me the group stage is too long and has a few useless matches that could be skipped to gain time. But that's just me. I'd rather play less but longer matches against players with equal level than more short matches against players of different levels. It would also make draws more accurate for knock-out stage. Basically during the whole group stage, I'm just thinking "Ok, let's play another 14 matches just to get a top 4 or top 6 in quite a random order".
I don't know, maybe it's time to modify deeply the system ? Why not trying the double elimination system ? That's probably another discussion to have.

About the coefficients, I have to admit that I don't quite know which side to choose...
First of all, I think we have to keep a TT event at CDM: yes, the TT site exists for TT competition throughout the year, but the players' site ranking doesn't necessarily reflect the actual shape/form of the players during a specific CDM (not sure my english is clear enough here: for example, you can be and remain #7 on the TT site, and yet have trained a lot during a specific year and win gold at CDM).

I don't want the TT event to be longer than it is (mostly for reasons explained on top of this message), and that's what make me sceptical about the TT coefficient being equal to the others modes. You make one small mistake, or get all thwomps down at BC3 ? Ok, tournament done for you, sorry about the xxx points you just lost (compared to your direct opponents) for messing up one corner alone. :P :-X
I probably wouldn't mind TT coef being equal to the others if TT was played longer, but:
1) that's not what I wish because CDM is always really long
2) I don't think it would make TT more appealing (but let's just hope someone finds a way to play it a little longer and still be fun and enjoyable)

I understand the logic "TT is a mode of SMK, then it should have the same coef", but I do not think it is something that must be accepted as absolute truth in this case. I think the CDM (and the way points are earned) is just made like we wish to define it. After all, we also defined to give 1000 points for perfect group stage and 2000 points for the winner of a mode: why not 1500 and 1500 ? Why not 500 and 4000 ? We just defined the rules (and changed them on  few occasions) over the years as we thought it was good and balanced for our purposes. There is no absolute truth in this case, we just need to decide if TT has to be as important as the other modes in a CDM competition (taking into account as it is now, or as it could become if we change the way it's played).
Most of this makes sense to me.
I can imagine it are very longs days for certain players.
But I see no reason why that cant be changed somewhat, si that can be fixed.
We could easily take about an hour of the three multiplayer modes to give the top players some more rest and add 1 or 2 hours of tt.

But the last part I dont understand.
You say the amount of points given has randomness, sure, but thats within modes, not between the modes.
The total points that can be earned in all 3 multiplayer modes is the same or near the same isnt it?
Except for TT, for which the only reason that makes some sense is that it lasts shorter.
But it seems to me that can be dealt with.
Also randomness that could be argued as a reason, is something that can be fixed.

TT is 1-player mode only -> coef 1.
MR, BM and GP are 2-players modes -> coef 2.

And even if TT is a mode of SMK, he's not adapted to have its own entire day. If it has a lower coef, it's because it lasts twice smaller than other modes. And to be honest, even if I was a big fan of TT, I'm not sure we'll be able to find a way to make TT attractive for everyone, if he lasts 10 hours.
I dont understand the logic of the first part of your message.
According to that logic, the importance (and thus the money awarded) at Rolland Garros for the doubles tournament matches should be twice that of the singles tournament, because double the amount of players.

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« Réponse #484 le: 13 septembre 2019, à 02:13:47 »
With this logic, I was most thinking about fighting games tournaments. A game like Street Fighter has 1-player mode, but I can't imagine EVO event will introduce a 1-player part one day (for example, finish the game the fastest possible).
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« Réponse #485 le: 13 septembre 2019, à 08:53:30 »
It's not fighting, it's racing. More like Tour de France also has time attack stages (that are counted as equal).

Anyway, no matter how solid our arguments are we're obviously not going to convince all the doubters; but I wouldn't be arguing for this so fervently (again, after not pushing the idea for many years) if I didn't have the feeling that this TT inequality is now annoying/surprising more and more people within the current CDM community. So eventually we'll have to find out if this is the majority and then deal with the result accordingly.
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« Réponse #486 le: 16 septembre 2019, à 10:08:40 »
Ah, okay. I was mostly reacting about BM and MR in 5 rounds, and not 4, in stage. I was asking if you don't like Draw/Tie ?  ;D

I'm mostly interested in having the best group stage system possible within the time constraints that we have. I don't really care whether draws are possible or not. You?  :)

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« Réponse #487 le: 16 septembre 2019, à 12:01:26 »
TT is 1-player mode only -> coef 1.
MR, BM and GP are 2-players modes -> coef 2.

And even if TT is a mode of SMK, he's not adapted to have its own entire day. If it has a lower coef, it's because it lasts twice smaller than other modes. And to be honest, even if I was a big fan of TT, I'm not sure we'll be able to find a way to make TT attractive for everyone, if he lasts 10 hours.
I dont understand the logic of the first part of your message.
According to that logic, the importance (and thus the money awarded) at Rolland Garros for the doubles tournament matches should be twice that of the singles tournament, because double the amount of players.

Yes, but in Tennis, Double sucks  ::)



Ah, okay. I was mostly reacting about BM and MR in 5 rounds, and not 4, in stage. I was asking if you don't like Draw/Tie ?  ;D

I'm mostly interested in having the best group stage system possible within the time constraints that we have. I don't really care whether draws are possible or not. You?  :)

Hm, if we do Group Stage with BM and MR in 5 rounds, i suppose the number of matches will be 11 (11 x 5 = 55 and 14 x 4 = 56) : the beating (raclées) will be longer, and with less matches, the SB will be less accurate. We are not in Tennis, we can have tie.
Anyway, i like the draws, it must exist (as in GP) ; I am one of the instigators of the victory at 2 pts at the CDM, instead of 3, so yes, I LOVE draws  <3 (http://www.ffsmk.org/forum/index.php?topic=2505.msg81377#msg81377)
« Modifié: 16 septembre 2019, à 12:16:39 par Narnet »
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« Réponse #488 le: 16 septembre 2019, à 14:28:05 »
you don't have to have draws in GP. In knockout rounds of mk64 meet we don't allow cup draws. If a cup is drawn on points, then the players replay the first track of the cup to decide who wins it (saves having just wasted 15mins to not get any result). Same could be done in group/knockout stages at cdm too if people wanted.
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« Réponse #489 le: 16 septembre 2019, à 15:25:08 »
you don't have to have draws in GP. In knockout rounds of mk64 meet we don't allow cup draws. If a cup is drawn on points, then the players replay the first track of the cup to decide who wins it (saves having just wasted 15mins to not get any result). Same could be done in group/knockout stages at cdm too if people wanted.

Au secours :-X ... Faites des CDM comme ça, sans match nul, et vous ne me voyez plus :fantome:
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« Réponse #490 le: 16 septembre 2019, à 20:00:20 »
you don't have to have draws in GP. In knockout rounds of mk64 meet we don't allow cup draws. If a cup is drawn on points, then the players replay the first track of the cup to decide who wins it (saves having just wasted 15mins to not get any result). Same could be done in group/knockout stages at cdm too if people wanted.

Au secours :-X ... Faites des CDM comme ça, sans match nul, et vous ne me voyez plus :fantome:

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« Réponse #491 le: 17 septembre 2019, à 03:26:36 »
Draws are part of Grand Prix as it allows them to happen, I hope they will always be counted during future CDMs (but I see no reason for this to change ???).
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« Réponse #492 le: 17 septembre 2019, à 08:57:56 »
I think Moll just stated that as a possibility, as it's done at mk64 tournaments this way.

I don't think anyone is pushing for that agenda for SMK. I also agree GP ties are cool (and pretty rare; they're too common in MK64 with 4 tracks per cup).
« Modifié: 17 septembre 2019, à 08:59:37 par KVD »

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« Réponse #493 le: 18 septembre 2019, à 18:43:05 »
It's not fighting, it's racing. More like Tour de France also has time attack stages (that are counted as equal).

Anyway, no matter how solid our arguments are we're obviously not going to convince all the doubters; but I wouldn't be arguing for this so fervently (again, after not pushing the idea for many years) if I didn't have the feeling that this TT inequality is now annoying/surprising more and more people within the current CDM community. So eventually we'll have to find out if this is the majority and then deal with the result accordingly.
Contre la montre. ;)
They even have time trial world championships and olympics.
And every grand tour has at least 1 usually 2 or 3 time trial days. ;)
And the peleton is not 2 people racing each other but 170. :o

Anyway, as Karel said, to each their opinion, thats obviously fine.
Not that if I didnt think it was fine that would matter any. :D

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« Réponse #494 le: 18 septembre 2019, à 23:37:12 »
La "mauvaise" comparaison, encore  ;D.
Temps passé sur des contre la montre : 2 heures.
Temps passé sur les étapes en peloton : 90 heures.
Okay, mettons le TT coefficient 1 et les 3 autres modes coefficient 15  ::)

Edit : en exagérant un peu moins, si on parle en nombre d'étapes :
Contre la montre : 3 (maxi ; avec éventuellement un en equipe (je n'ai surtout pas dit qu'il faut rajouter du TT par Team au CDM ...))
Autre étapes : 18 (minimum)
Soit un ratio de 1 pour 6, et on retrouve la norme de ce que ça devrait être : 1 pour le TT et 3 fois 2 pour les autres.
Merci de votre coopération, CQFD !  :D ;D
« Modifié: 19 septembre 2019, à 07:42:38 par Narnet »
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Aussi fort qu'Harold, le triple champion du monde de Battle, sur la map 4
Vainqueur du tournoi improvisé de SMK de la PPRM 2 (2010)
Qualifié en phase finale du TT et de GP au CDM 2011
3ème du GP à la Fall Cup 2016
3ème du TT à la Winter 2017

Hasta el non-NBT siempre

Le travail surpasse le talent quand le talent échoue à faire son oeuvre