Softening lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...

[Champion de la TOC]

Yeh its just a bit tricky with lightning cos it is random but small chance in normal cases.

In SF games, they just ban a character and thats ok, cos it doesnt affect the live part of the matches.

For example, i would make a time machine and go back to remove Ken from SF2T  if i could But i would always keep Blanka for Swiss Power's crazy techniques 

So yeh perhaps something in between can be done, of course many might disagree and keep with the randomness like myself. So an "adopt the rule for those where both agree on a match" or leave it as is on other cases could be the one to use.

[Neo, the Daenerys Targaryen of SMK]

I think banning Sami would be the simplest solution...

[ScouB]

 

[Champion de la TOC]

Ok i wont play it then   

[clbrun]

Like many said, if 2 players agree about a special arrangement (no lightnings / no IB / no NBT / no farts / or even tricks allowed), i see absolutely no reason to go against this ! it would be “ingerence” from someone who isn’t involved in a match to tell one player “hey man, you must use your lightning!”

The only problem which can occur is when one player is for a rule and the other is against : in this case, the official rules should be applied : lightnings allowed (probably), IB allowed (i guess, unfortunately), nbt / farts allowed, tricks forbidden, ...

I agree with karel when he says that lightning doesn t require any skill to be efficient (whereas some skill is needed for other techs), but saying that the “it s a part of the game” is not a convincing argument seems really ironic for me : it s exactly the same stupid argument that i heard when talking about NBT / LBs / IBs !
i also think everyone has to admit that the devastative effect of lightnings are perfectly in accordance with the nintendo developpers’ will (since there would be no point for lightnings otherwise!), whereas i m pretty sure that LBs and especially IBs are just an unexpected bug...

So the real thing to consider shouldn’t be “it s a part of the game or not”, but “is it good for the game / competition or not ?”
that s why now i m ok to play against some NBT / crazy LB players, even if i personnaly do not use this techs (because it s my “philosophy”, but also because i am not ready to spend hours to master this techs on every track anyway, i admit). That s also why i have absolutely no respect at all for the guys who use IBs against players (like me) who are scandalised by IBs, which on my opinion doesn t bring any “improvement / interest” to the competition (even if it improves the chrono performance).
on my opinion, lightnings are not only a part of the game, but indeed an essential part of it : it enables some rare but spectacular (but sometimes unfair) returnment of situation, so that a race is never ended before the finish line ! and some legendary races / finishes would not have occured without lightnings, so i think they are good for the show and for the suspense.
it s true there were maybe too many lightnings in the MR final last year, and i really think (and hope) it won t happen every year : as far as i can remember, i do not think there has been another match where lightnings have been so decisive, since they are quite rare (normally)

to karel, camillo and all the other guys that would like to use this “gentleman arrangement”, if you guys are really consequent and in accordance with your ideas, you should never use lightnings, no matter if your opponent use them or not! because :
- either you really think lightnings are gamebreaking => you wouldn t adopt a gamebreaking behavior (without considering if it may disavantage you or not),
- or you are ready to use them against players that don t subscribe to your gentleman arrangement, which would mean that finaly, lightnings are not so gamebreaking after all, and also that you are not gentlemen...

But once more, anyway, i think you can play with all the rules you want if your opponent is ok with them !

Last point : you can avoid a lightning by jumping into void / lava / deep water 8O

[KVD]

on my opinion, lightnings are not only a part of the game, but indeed an essential part of it : it enables some rare but spectacular (but sometimes unfair) returnment of situation, so that a race is never ended before the finish line ! and some legendary races / finishes would not have occured without lightnings, so i think they are good for the show and for the suspense.

When I read this reply, I'm not sure if you understood what I proposed with my system. Lightnings are still an essential part of the game with this system;  these kind of upsets would STILL happen! A situation can still be returned unfairly. If you're certain to lose the match, you can use the lightning et voila the match results in a nullificaton, warranting a retry. In other words, lightning still conveys an advantage if you get it, cos you can nullify a match you would otherwise lose for sure. The only thing that is different is that you can't unfairly BEAT the opponent. It’s a subtle, but vital difference, but lightnings are still very much a part of the game. In fact, the tactics around lightnings get another dimension added to it, because when you get one, at first you will try to win without using it (it’s a gamble). Therefore this system adds to the decision making process = skill.

but saying that the “it s a part of the game” is not a convincing argument seems really ironic for me : it s exactly the same stupid argument that i heard when talking about NBT / LBs / IBs !

Well, I never used that argument in favour of NBT/LB/IB, as it’s a fallacy, a type of argument I avoid to make at all costs.  I’m totally against IB as you know. LB and NBT have a good learning curve and add to the amount of skill needed to win. Therefore I am ok with those; making the game more skillful is a good thing from where I am standing. So we are completely agreed with this statement:

So the real thing to consider shouldn’t be “it s a part of the game or not”, but “is it good for the game / competition or not ?”

to karel, camillo and all the other guys that would like to use this “gentleman arrangement”, if you guys are really consequent and in accordance with your ideas, you should never use lightnings, no matter if your opponent use them or not!
 

Once again I am under the impression that you didn’t understand my proposed system yet. In the gentlemen’s agreement system it’s perfectly ok to USE lightning, it just strips away some of it’s main benefits, as the scoring system is adjusted accordingly. 

- or you are ready to use them against players that don t subscribe to your gentleman arrangement, which would mean that finaly, lightnings are not so gamebreaking after all, and also that you are not gentlemen...

That argument doesn’t make any sense. The act of using the tactic doesn’t say anything about if the tactic is game-breaking or not. It can be used all the time and still be completely game-breaking.   

EDIT: Actually I realize it’s my own fault for using the thread title ‘Banning lightnings’…it gives completely the wrong impression of the system. Therefore I changed the subject title to match accordingly.

[Flo233]

Donc si j'ai bien compris Karel propose de rejouer la course si on gagne en utilisant un éclair ?
 

[KVD]

Yes, in very short, that is the case. 

[clbrun]

>>karel
i did read your post with attention, and i understood that we could still use the lightning and :
- if we win the round thanks to a lightning, then in fact it only enables to avoid defeat since we re-play the track
- if we lose even with a lightning, then we are a real looser and lose the round anyway

but what i wanted to say in the first quoted part of my post is that for me, when a guy wins a round with a spectacular returnment of situation (ie a lightning), then he wins the round => no nullification ! it may seem unfair / no skill / gamebreaking, but if finally we start playing some rounds just to avoid defeat, well... 

so i wanted to say i would personnaly play as we always did before, without gentleman agreement for lightnings (but ok for IBs )
and all what i said about poors arguments was not against you, but about what i ve often read when it came to debates 

[KVD]

but what i wanted to say in the first quoted part of my post is that for me, when a guy wins a round with a spectacular returnment of situation (ie a lightning), then he wins the round => no nullification ! it may seem unfair / no skill / gamebreaking, but if finally we start playing some rounds just to avoid defeat, well... 

Yes, that's a very understandable point of view of course. Probably the vast majority of karters think the same way. It's more upsetting/spectacular to lose unfairly, then to draw unfairly. 

so i wanted to say i would personnaly play as we always did before, without gentleman agreement for lightnings (but ok for IBs )

No problem for an agreement with me here, I agree that IB’s are probably an even bigger problem than lightning as IB completely ruins an entire track. 

[Champion de la TOC]

Im start thinking im gona get confused now.

During a tight race, my mind is on what im doing to keep on the road and not drive like some English...

Anyway suddenly i get a lightning, then i cant remember what to do at the moment because of the pressure. Suddenly when the race is over i realise i pressed it and ruined the race when i could have won it properly, then a retry is done.

I agree with Cedric, leave the lightnings as it is. The kart gods will decide when they come, not us.

As for IB on MC3, i can get around it (have to be good driving though). Of course it does ruin the track a bit on racing. So again if players want to bother with it, they can.

[Alicia Kart]

I'm trying to find another argument than "that's part of the game".

And I got this one : random green shells in Battle Mode can also be something unfair if you got some too much. And some of them ruined a final round for the win (Geo - Clbrun in 2005, or Sami - Harold in 2008, remember ? ).

The way random green shells can affect a match, really looks like to lightnings ! But... are you ready to propose here a gentlemen's agreement too ?

[clbrun]

And I got this one : random green shells in Battle Mode can also be something unfair if you got some too much. And some of them ruined a final round for the win (Geo - Clbrun in 2005, or Sami - Harold in 2008, remember ? ).

there were also Clbrun vs Merny in 2003 and Clbrun vs Harold in 2006 

[ScouB]

ScouB-Camillo 2004 

well actually that was not the final round but still ... 

[Champion de la TOC]

Yes lets ban green shells cos they always run into me only for some reason.

For me they are green shells with a little bit of red on them..