Auteur Sujet: Softening lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...  (Lu 31958 fois)

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Softening lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« le: 13 juillet 2010, à 10:01:57 »
If you don't want to read all the txt, only read the solution and final paragraph.  ;)

Ok, this "problem" doesn't need an introduction after last year's MR final I suppose... ::)
I was tooling around with a way to make sure this type of scenario (where lightning decides an important match or several ones) will never occur again at a Championnat.

Game-breaking?
The reason I find lightning more game-breaking than for example a feather on CI2 or playing NBT (versus Non-NBT), is that lightning never misses its effect and is not beneficial for the user itself; the only thing it does is cripple the opponent, physically blocking him from competing normally for approximately a full lap. Add to that that it cannot possibly be blocked and takes 0 skill to use, et voilà! there you have an item that completely breaks the game. :-X With gamebreaking it is generally meant (in communities of competitive games, such as SMK) that the ratio between skill and luck to decide the outcome of a match is too highly disturbed. Ideally of course, in a competition to the decide a World Champion in a skill-based game, such as SMK, you want the factor skill to at least have some impact on the outcome of a match. And of course you want to have a randomness factor as well to keep things spicey (items such as stars, red shells, etc.) When lightning is involved in a race however, the equilibrium is almost completely shifted to the luck component. I’m willing to bet lightning has a match winner predictive value of about 90% if it is picked up before final lap. Thankfully the item is rare, so the harshness of it can be eradicated over the course of a series of races. That is not enough for me though, as it can STILL almost completely decide the outcome of one critical deciding match. Also, if the item was more common (say 1 in 10), there would be a rule against it’s use for sure. This fact alone signififes that there IS a problem with this item (which is only covered up by it’s rarity).
 
Add to this that for some strange reason the item can occur in bursts, and in my opinion, we have a real problem with the MR mode. Having 1 lightning over the course of a full 20 races of MR is normal. Getting more than 1 lightning in such a series is quite rare, but if it happens, it seems like a 3rd, 4th and even 5th one will occur more easily than the normal ratios can explain. I’ve observed this in quite a few MR sessions (I almost always play through all 20 tracks if I’m playing casual MR with people like Geo, Sami, etc.), where suddenly lightning becomes a trend and the normal odds appear to be disturbed. Of course I don’t have any statistical evidence to back this up (I’m not  THAT geeky ;D), but it’s definitely something I’ve noticed over the course of time.

Solution?
The goal of the solution would of course be to prevent lightnings  from having their unfair effects, but in such a way that the person who receives lightning is not harmed by it either. If you would simply make a rule that states you are not allowed to use lightning, the receiver will be punished for not being able to pick up another item for example. I’ve thought of an elegant solution to fix this problem however.

The rules would be as follows:
-From the moment you USE lightning, you can no longer WIN the race…winning as expected, will nullify the outcome of this race and means it has to be played again to determine who gets the point.
-Picking up lightning is not punished of course. That circumvents any problems there could exist by stealing the item with a ghost and stuff, as it’s using it that counts. This means you can make a tactical decision to go for a nullification if you’re almost certain to lose otherwise. It also means you will try to win without using it  first (so you can collect the actual point) and have a back-up solution if that fails, because for example you couldn’t use any other items anymore.
It’s clear to see that this system doesn’t really punish the lightning receiver, as he has the freedom to do with it what he wishes and has a back-up plan to nullify the match, if his attempt at winning normally fails. Also if he uses the lightning and loses anyway, then the point obviously goes to the guy that won the race. It’s clear as day that if you don’t win with lightning, you would have almost certainly lost through all other methods as well (true in 99% + cases I’d say).
An additional rule is that when both players use lightning, the match will be viewed as normal again (meaning nullification is no longer possible for that race), obviously. 

Conservative
The problem I have here, is that the SMK community is extremely conservative, as the past has shown in more than a few instances. I’m almost certain that this kind of rule proposal will almost exclusively have opponents (we will see… ::)). The only reason I usually hear is that it’s part of the game and that we  therefore have to accept it. I don’t think that’s a convincing argument at all (for example, through the same logic you could argue that sickness if a part of life and you should therefore refuse to take medicine to take life as it is intended). However, I respect everyone’s opinions and if the majority simply WANTS nothing to change, then that’s something I just have to accept. I’m not even gonna add a poll as I have a feeling I know what the outcome will be already.  :P

Gentlemen’s agreement
When talking to Pierre about this issue yesterday, he hinted me to introduce this concept through the system of gentlemen’s agreement. Seeing that this rule-system should not and can not possibly be forced, I really feel a gentlemen’s agreement is the best way to go about it. If both players agree to play with the lightning nullification system, then they should be able to.
 So this CDM, before all my MR matches, I will ask my opponent if he wants to play with the lightning nullification system. Refuse the proposal or agree with it as you please, I won’t think any different about it.   

Your thoughts guys?  ;)

(Perhaps this should be in the reglement topic, I wasn't sure, as I'm not suggesting a rule change, I'm suggesting a gentlemen's agreement system)
« Modifié: 13 juillet 2010, à 23:53:52 par KVD »

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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!?
« Réponse #1 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 10:12:07 »
I move it into the rules section ;)

Seems that our long MSN discussion yesterday made you think deeper than ever about it ;D
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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #2 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 10:29:04 »
I guess i would probably be against, as you said "lightning is part of the game"
It remembers me the topic of el Nico "delete zoomstart in MR"  ;D*
Even if I agree thats so boring when the second player just behind you obtain a lighting  :P
It would be very boring for the 1st player who could possibly win the course even if the other guy got a lightning to rerun the track and lose it  :-\ (example: i remember to have won a course against harold even if he got 2 lighning  ;D in 2004 if i remember well)

We talked about that with géo and the only reason i would agree with this rule would be if there was indeed a technic which guarantee a high successrate of obtainning a lightning...
« Modifié: 13 juillet 2010, à 10:31:56 par ScouB »
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Re: Re : Banning lightnings in MR!?
« Réponse #3 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 10:43:12 »
I move it into the rules section ;)

Yeah, its not really a rule suggestion though, is it?
It's a gentlemen's agreement that you can offer before a match. I'm just explaining the concept of that.

I guess i would probably be against

You can't really be against it as such, because as stated above, it's not a rule suggestion. It's a gentlemen's agreement you can say yes or no to before a match, that's all.

It would be very boring for the 1st player who could possibly win the course even if the other guy got a lightning to rerun the track and lose it  :-\ (example: i remember to have won a course against harold even if he got 2 lighning  ;D in 2004 if i remember well)

I don’t think you completely understood the concept. You always finish the race. The result gets nullified depending on the outcome of the match if lightning was used.  If you win DESPITE the other guy using lightning, you don’t need to rerun the track, you would have simply won it. Nullification only happens if the guy that USED lightning wins (as expected). It’s clear as day that if you don’t win with lightning, you would have almost certainly lost through all other methods as well (true in 99% + cases I’d say).


« Modifié: 13 juillet 2010, à 11:14:22 par KVD »

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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #4 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 10:56:58 »
Karel: I perfectly understood that it's not a rule suggestion. But I think this section is the place your thread fits the best in. ;)
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Re: Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #5 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 10:59:20 »
Yeah, I just wanted to stress that this is not a rule suggestion that you can be in favour of or be against. Seeing it in the rules section might provoke that kind of reactions.

I would just like the concept to be reviewed without thinking about the implications it would have if it would be a forced rule.

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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #6 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 11:04:18 »
Karel, the gentleman of SMK !
The thing we spent the most time thinking about was the Battle Mode. Miyamoto.

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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #7 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 11:33:23 »
Ban the Match Race! :D

I'll play with you with the lightning nullification system, Karel, :) And with everybody who want to.
And the same for stupid zoomstart.
« Modifié: 13 juillet 2010, à 11:44:31 par Don Camillo »

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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #8 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 12:09:58 »
Theres a lot of things in the game that sucks, all the zoom starts being different everywhere also yes... The skank tactics that are unfortunately "in the game" that we cant avoid.

I think under pressure in a heated race wel suddenly forget a rule, and push a wrong button. But maybe just do what we done on a lot of the pro evo tournos, leave it as default, unless both players agree not to play with full red up arrows.

So if both players agree to use a nullification system, then it can be done. But if only one wants to use nullification and the other doesn't, then the match will be like it always was before... with Shitening and Gayraud tactics as much as you want  >:D
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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #9 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 12:31:48 »
Je suis contre cette proposition.
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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #10 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 12:47:09 »
Au pire c'est comme l'IB, si deux joueurs se mettent d'accord au début entre eux pour ne pas utiliser les éclairs, je ne vois pas pourquoi on les empêcherait, ça ne regarde qu'eux et ils en assumeront les conséquences ;)
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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #11 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 12:50:06 »
I remember, in 2005 before the GP final with El Nico, we agreed to not use the feather on CI2 because we thougt it was game-breaking. I think (but I'm not sure) he had an opportunity to use it, but he gently cut a corner with it.
« Modifié: 13 juillet 2010, à 15:58:04 par Don Camillo »

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Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #12 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 12:59:24 »
of course I can't support this proposal, but as mario says, I won't be against 2 players which decided together not to use lightnings in their match.
CDM, où tu iras j'irai :-* O0

Bref, je conclue en espérant que vous ouvriez un peu les yeux... :(

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Re : Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #13 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 13:20:55 »
of course I can't support this proposal, but as mario says, I won't be against 2 players which decided together not to use lightnings in their match.

I would ban blue shells in other mario karts also but its in the game too.

Paul Tanney told me he entered an MKWii competition after release and he could have won in the final of a 4 player race, the prize was a car or something. Cos of stupid items the weakest player of the 4 was the winner :D

Mind you MkWii is really bad for the items. In general even with lightnings we wont have a problem here.

Leyla was a victim to Biff last year also in a mini tourno at my house, he got 3 lightnings vs her in a first to 5 Final Match race and won 5-4. It happens, so we have to be tough soldiers and accept the shit sometimes and move on with it as it is.
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Re: Re : Re : Banning lightnings in MR!? A gentlemen's proposal...
« Réponse #14 le: 13 juillet 2010, à 14:04:24 »
of course I can't support this proposal, but as mario says, I won't be against 2 players which decided together not to use lightnings in their match.

I would ban blue shells in other mario karts also but its in the game too.

That underlines my point. Are these games still popular as competitive multiplayer games? No. Reason...they are broken. If you want to have a healthy longivety for competitive gaming, such flaws need to either not exist or be worked around. Thankfully SMK has very few of such problems, it's all very well balanced, except a few things, such as lightning (and arguably that's balanced out by rarity).

Loads of gaming communities have adapted specific sets of rules that stray away from the original intention of the game, to keep the game interesting. Plenty of examples in SF, but examples can be found all over the place actually (CS, etc.)

And I'm not actually talking about banning lightning, this system will only make sure the benefits are kept within the right proportion.
« Modifié: 13 juillet 2010, à 14:06:03 par KVD »