Auteur Sujet: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver  (Lu 75261 fois)

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Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #210 le: 30 août 2013, à 10:22:55 »
I know this may be sensitive to some, but can we please try and have these discussions in English, so that we can all understand what's going on? It's not exclusively a French championship anymore, it's a World Championship and it also concerns people who don't speak French.
I can understand that you're more comfortable discussing 'complex' issues in your native tongue, so if someone would care to summarize in English once in a while (every page or so) what was said, that would also be fine I guess.

Also, Cedric deciding to continue our 'personal' discussion in french, which was until that point in English, just to allow him to get away with expressing some really sarcastic remarks, is extemely lame and shows a level of disrespect that's almost shocking.  :-\

non, vraiment, je trouve que les top players doivent justifier que leur niveau théorique n'est pas usurpé, et franchement je veux bien que karel ou drew m'explique quel cdm a eu un classement véritablement faussé et délégitimé à cause du système actuel :P

It's really easy to explain though.
Take an example where Neo is eliminated in 1/16 in GP by BPA. On the other hand Aron gets an easier opponent and eliminates me by winning 2 cups to 1 (helped by lightning perhaps  ::)). Aron progresses to the quarter final. But merited by a pass through of a much easier opponent!

Conclusion 1: BPA has knocked out Neo and his ranking above Neo in the tournament is legitimized.
Conclusion 2: With the current system, Aron is then also ranked above Neo in the tournament.

Is Aron ranking above Neo legit/earned? What did Aron do to deserve a ranking ahead of Neo? In fact, what would happen if Neo got his chance versus Aron (considering Aron would lose the quarter final to a strong opponent). Would Neo beat Aron? 99% yes. So I would argue that the assigned/assumed ranking by single elimination is HIGHLY inaccurate (1 in a 100 accuracy)! If Aron would play vs Neo and makes that 1 in a 100 shot count to finish above the master, THEN superb job and well earned! But he has to play for it one way or the other. We can't have 1 freak result be extrapolated to 4 or more freak results! What kind of overall rankings does that lead to?  :-X :-X

So until then, the extrapolation/assumption of:
BPA > Neo +                       (~1 in 20 shot, can happen)
Aron > Karel                       (~1 in 5 shot, can happen)
= Aron > Neo                      (~1 in 100 shot when facing off directly)
is utter horse shit.

I understand not everyone in the top-16 can play every other top-16 player, but let's not go to the other extreme of 1 match deciding the entire ranking order either. And don't give me that bs about the group stages, because a best of 4 between fairly evenly matched players is nothing more than a coinflip.
« Modifié: 30 août 2013, à 10:43:10 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »

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Re : Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #211 le: 30 août 2013, à 11:13:23 »
Take an example where Neo is eliminated in 1/16 in GP by BPA. On the other hand Aron gets an easier opponent and eliminates me by winning 2 cups to 1 (helped by lightning perhaps  ::)). Aron progresses to the quarter final. But merited by a pass through of a much easier opponent!

Conclusion 1: BPA has knocked out Neo and his ranking above Neo in the tournament is legitimized.
Conclusion 2: With the current system, Aron is then also ranked above Neo in the tournament.

Is Aron ranking above Neo legit/earned? What did Aron do to deserve a ranking ahead of Neo? In fact, what would happen if Neo got his chance versus Aron (considering Aron would lose the quarter final to a strong opponent). Would Neo beat Aron? 99% yes. So I would argue that the assigned/assumed ranking by single elimination is HIGHLY inaccurate (1 in a 100 accuracy)! If Aron would play vs Neo and makes that 1 in a 100 shot count to finish above the master, THEN superb job and well earned! But he has to play for it one way or the other. We can't have 1 freak result be extrapolated to 4 or more freak results! What kind of overall rankings does that lead to?  :-X :-X

Doesn't this actually happen in every big sports tournament?
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Re : Re : Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #212 le: 30 août 2013, à 11:39:51 »
Là où il faut travailler pour gagner + de temps, c'est:

- durée des poules (un peu moins de matchs, mais + de matchs contre des joueurs de même niveau ou de niveau approchant; je pense qu'une douzaine de matchs de poule est une limite à ne pas trop dépasser)

Alors là + 10 000 ! Si on arrive à faire maximum une douzaine de match par poule, c'est du tout bon ! Mais encore une fois comment faire si on est 50 par exemple (ce qui n'est pas impossible en 2014) ? SYstème belge ? 4 poules de 12-13 ?
If you want only 12 matches in the poule, with 50 players only the S.B. (used in NTSC 2012) can give a fair top8 to do the final table!
With 16 matches in the phase group, the system used for CDM2012 could also work for 50 players and it give also a fair top 8 since all the top players play against each others!

@Karel : in term of points, for general ranking, that was an error in 2012 to not give to the second phase his real value (30 points against 80 points in phase 1... very poor). If I compare in MR Clbrun (1/4 finalist) and Scoub (1/8 finalist), in terms of points they received both the same points (1015 vs 1010). But regarding the whole peformance (phase group include) Scoub was 2nd of his poule in phase 1 (Same group as Cedric and where Scoub beat Cedric 4-0) and was first of the poule 1-8, what is a very impressive performance! Now if we give to a victory in second phase the same value as the first phase, results must be (keeping the same proportion for bonus) something like :
Salim : 980 (1/8 finalist but was in front of Clbrun after the phase group)
Clbrun : 1090 despites his 1/4 finalist because only in barrage
Scoub : 1350
Karel : 1595 (behind Scoub in phase group but 1/4 finalist)

I think this is more fair for the general ranking

And if you take the example of Neo and Ben in GP (again in 2012), in term of total points earned, if Ben was the winner of their 1/8, with the good points he had received less points than Neo. For me it's important to see the global performance to attribute the points.

With the S.B. (and to a lesser extent with the 2012 system) : finish first of the phase group is as hard as winning the final table :-X

And don't give me that bs about the group stages, because a best of 4 between fairly evenly matched players is nothing more than a coinflip.
It's why passing to best of 6 for the top player between them could be a good point, even if that give the phase group a little bit more longer (I repeat only in BM cause in MR, top players play faster), max 30 min, but if it's something taht could give fair 1/4 and 1/2 table, we must use it!
We have always the possibility to regain that 30 min by begin 30 min early or doing less break in the final :P
« Modifié: 30 août 2013, à 11:47:52 par djo »
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Re: Re : Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #213 le: 30 août 2013, à 12:09:14 »
Doesn't this actually happen in every big sports tournament?

Yep, but only in relatively isolated ones, like world cup of football, wimbledon, etc.

However, remember a CDM tournament contributes to the bigger picture of an overall ranking. Actually that's what the whole CDM is about! It's not even as much about the individual tournos. The current system is equivalent to only the grand slam tournaments determining the ATP ranking in tennis...acceptable? Maybe.
But remember every tennis match takes over 1 hour, rather than 15 minutes AND these tournaments use a PRE-SEEDED set-up. Federer doesn't have to play against random guy X, Y and Z for half a set, to determine whether he faces Nadal or Tiemo de Bakker in quarter finals.  ::) :-X

So to answer your question, does it happen in every major sports tournament? Yes.
But it's more acceptable in those because the matches played are generally much longer, pre-seeding is used and such tournaments don't contribute very dominantly to an overall ranking like with CDM. 
« Modifié: 30 août 2013, à 12:23:08 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »

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a PRE-SEEDED set-up.
That's the purpose of the phase group => so we have to find the best system which could give the seeds (especially the top seeds)! None is perfect but I think we can just improve those we have yet used :-\

@Karel... I write in english... what do you think about my previous message ::)
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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #215 le: 30 août 2013, à 12:25:18 »
Karel, what do you think about the 2012 system ? Phase 1 and 2 for the poules. During the phase 2, you face opponents of your level normally. Then even if you have bad luck in one match, you can offset with the other matches.
The thing we spent the most time thinking about was the Battle Mode. Miyamoto.

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #216 le: 30 août 2013, à 12:32:08 »
Thnx Djo. I think the system you're proposing so far is superior to the system we used at CDM this year. Definitely.
I don't think it's superior to double elimination, personally. That said, with some tweaking it could be a sufficient system and, importantly, maybe one that most people prefer. We'll see.

@ Geo, yes, but the phase 2 poules need a few extra rounds per match to make it more balanced. I remember the KO tournament seeding of 2012 was a complete random mess, because the phase 2 matches were very random in outcome (with evenly matched players doing short matches). As written above, double elim rather than more accurate poule stages has (by far) my personal preference, because double elim would involve less matches to be just as accurate.
« Modifié: 30 août 2013, à 12:38:00 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »

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Re : Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #217 le: 30 août 2013, à 12:43:19 »
Thnx Djo. I think the system you're proposing so far is superior to the system we used at CDM this year. Definitely.
Good  8)

I don't think it's superior to double elimination, personally. That said, with some tweaking it could be a sufficient system and, importantly, maybe one that most people prefer. We'll see.
Karel, maybe you could explain more clearly what is the double elim system and how to organize it (shedule btw)? It concern only the final group? Begin after the 1/8 or 1/4? and so on
Maybe do a scheme with the looser bracket?
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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #218 le: 30 août 2013, à 13:13:57 »
Well, that's something that needs a little more discussion. Because we're basically free to apply it in whichever way we want.  ;)
Neo will be looking into a proposal, but don't expect it very soon.

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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #219 le: 30 août 2013, à 16:18:24 »
Je finirai donc par un argument de poids: je m'oppose, et m'opposerai toujours à un Championnat de France des poules! :P Voilà, c'est dit: le Champion doit être le meilleur des phases finales, point barre.
The thing we spent the most time thinking about was the Battle Mode. Miyamoto.

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Re : Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #220 le: 30 août 2013, à 16:26:25 »
Je suis d'accord avec Neo et DJ Foo. Le CDF sanctionne une performance, et non pas nécessairement le meilleur joueur de France (sinon, autant filer le titre à Kartie directement).

CDM, où tu iras j'irai :-* O0

Bref, je conclue en espérant que vous ouvriez un peu les yeux... :(

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Re : Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #221 le: 30 août 2013, à 16:36:56 »
Je finirai donc par un argument de poids: je m'oppose, et m'opposerai toujours à un Championnat de France des poules! :P Voilà, c'est dit: le Champion doit être le meilleur des phases finales, point barre.

Je ne sais pas qui est ce Neo, mais il a l'air d'avoir de la jugeote ! :o 8)
Mais surtout, je dois faire un très, très gros aparté, où je ne vais pas y aller avec le dos de la cuillère, sur la partie "SMK = eSport", aspect sur lequel certains se fourrent le doigt dans l'œil jusque dans des zones inexplorées de leur anatomie

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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #222 le: 30 août 2013, à 16:38:46 »
ben c'est babzzz :D
CDM, où tu iras j'irai :-* O0

Bref, je conclue en espérant que vous ouvriez un peu les yeux... :(

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Re : Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #223 le: 30 août 2013, à 17:53:52 »
I know this may be sensitive to some, but can we please try and have these discussions in English, so that we can all understand what's going on? It's not exclusively a French championship anymore, it's a World Championship and it also concerns people who don't speak French.
I can understand that you're more comfortable discussing 'complex' issues in your native tongue, so if someone would care to summarize in English once in a while (every page or so) what was said, that would also be fine I guess.
you are wright, sometimes we forget the non french talking people who read this forum  :-[ so i'll try to speak english more often.

Citer
Also, Cedric deciding to continue our 'personal' discussion in french, which was until that point in English, just to allow him to get away with expressing some really sarcastic remarks, is extemely lame and shows a level of disrespect that's almost shocking.  :-\
if you are serious about his, i will not over react (even if THIS seems insulting against me) but just say you are wrong : my "french" post was following 30 posts from other guys written in french, so i went on wrinting in french just because the whole topic was turning into french. my purpose wasn't to exclude you or anyone else from this public (and not personnal) discussion :P


Take an example where Neo is eliminated in 1/16 in GP by BPA. On the other hand Aron gets an easier opponent and eliminates me by winning 2 cups to 1 (helped by lightning perhaps  ::)). Aron progresses to the quarter final. But merited by a pass through of a much easier opponent!

Conclusion 1: BPA has knocked out Neo and his ranking above Neo in the tournament is legitimized.
Conclusion 2: With the current system, Aron is then also ranked above Neo in the tournament.

Is Aron ranking above Neo legit/earned? What did Aron do to deserve a ranking ahead of Neo?
according to me, the fact is just than Aron defeated his opponent and neo didn't, nothing more to say ??? why would you compare something that is just not comparable ?
so except you and maybe drew, i am not sure that someone will ever say "aron quaterfinalist rank is bullshit because neo failed in 1/8th final"  :P do you apply your reasonment to every single man who is eliminated in 1/8th of each mode ? did you think that geo's 2nd place in MR 2012 is usurped because neo lost to sami in the other semi final? or that no quarterfinalists have any legitimity because scoub and mario lost in 1/8th? seriously, who else think like that ?


Citer
I understand not everyone in the top-16 can play every other top-16 player, but let's not go to the other extreme of 1 match deciding the entire ranking order either. And don't give me that bs about the group stages, because a best of 4 between fairly evenly matched players is nothing more than a coinflip.
once again, if neo is so good at GP, then he should always be #1 or #2 of his poule => he will play his 1/8th against a #7 or #8 guy (thus much weaker than him in theory) => he has great chances to qualifiy. so, if he fails, he is the only to blame ! how could he pretend to be winner of GP if he is not able to beat a guy who was merely not qualified for final phasis ?  :-X

so i will ask again, in english this time : according to you or drew or anybody else, could you give some examples of unexpected eliminations which have lead to an innacurate general (or even mode) ranking? personnaly, i don't remember any  ???

but i wait some concrete proposition from you or anyone else for a double elim system. not just to demolish it, but to point out the weaknesses of this system (mainly the time increase)
« Modifié: 30 août 2013, à 18:25:36 par clbrun »
Objectif 2013 : décrocher le titre de FOY

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Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #224 le: 30 août 2013, à 18:57:01 »
if you are serious about his, i will not over react (even if THIS seems insulting against me) but just say you are wrong : my "french" post was following 30 posts from other guys written in french, so i went on wrinting in french just because the whole topic was turning into french. my purpose wasn't to exclude you or anyone else from this public (and not personnal) discussion :P

The remarks that you made (and outlined below) are harsh. So harsh, that I get the feeling you wrote them in French so that I might miss them. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'll apologize for making that assumption.
 
si karel et drew veulent bouder pour ça, ca serait dommage, mais tant pis pour eux (même si je comprends qu'ils soient dégoutés de venir depuis très loin et de dépenser pas mal d'argent pour un cdm sans gagner de médaille dans leurs modes favoris)  :-\

"I can imagine that Karel and Drew won't travel the globe when they can't even win a medal in their favourite mode." Or something along those lines.

It's a sarcastic remark, but one that reflects your doubt behind our motives behind wanting to change the system. I'll say it once more, I don't want to change the system out of personal gain. I have more integrity than that. I just think the system needs to be changed because it is outdated and extremely inaccurate.

Ironically, I've had such harsh luck with drawing monsters in early KO stages the past CDMs, that I will probably not fall victim to it one more CDM. That means that statistically speaking my odds of being 'damaged' by a more accurate system are higher!  ::)

do you apply your reasonment to every single man who is eliminated in 1/8th of each mode ? did you think that geo's 2nd place in MR 2012 is usurped because neo lost to sami in the other semi final? or that no quarterfinalists have any legitimity because scoub and mario lost in 1/8th? seriously, who else think like that ?

Yes, I do think that. Is that so weird? It's extremely basic game theory. I'd be willing to say that many competitive gamers would think exactly the same way. But let's put that to the test and ask around.  :) Strictly speaking single elimination knock-out tournaments are just there to determine a champion. Not to determine a ranking order between those that finish 2nd to 16th.
So yes, I challenge the principle that quarter finalists are without question higher rewarded than 1/16 finalists, etc. Why do you think it is that any year-long sports competition is always organized in a league and not in a tournament? Could it be because of accuracy, you think?  :)
« Modifié: 30 août 2013, à 19:06:30 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »