Auteur Sujet: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver  (Lu 82741 fois)

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Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #120 le: 28 août 2013, à 13:35:22 »
but like i said, the problem is that there are too many strong players, and there will always be "final matchs" in quaterfinals

Believe me, there are BIG differences in skill level even among the top players.
Imagine a player like Gatchan (but could be Harold, ScouB, Mario or me as well) facing Sami/Neo in quarter final of GP. His chance of progressing would be extremely small. If he faces ScouB, Harold, Mario or me instead his chances are a lot more equalized. In this case the double elimination system would give Gatchan the chance to calibrate his true level versus players of his own caliber, rather then just being eliminated by fighting a big guy. Rivals of similar level to Gatchan simply avoided the big guy until later, therefore gaining an undeserved advantage on him (with the single elim system). 
The more I think about it, the less sense the current system makes. I wonder why no one filed a serious protest before.  :-X :-X :-X

It's why we do a phase group first and with that we have a fair final tournament. If you matchup the champion early in the final it's because you miss your group phase and there is no need for a second chance in that case! ::)

"Missing" your group stage involves losing maybe 2 or 3 REALLY short matches, so the argument is completely unvalid.

Well I have posted my opinion. I think it is clear now, so I won't be posting any additional messages.
If we cannot fix this problem sufficiently for the next edition, Drew and me won't be among the participants. Not because we want to blackmail or force our will, but simply because a set-up of this nature doesn't deserve our efforts and money. Sorry for sounding harsh, but enough is enough.
« Modifié: 28 août 2013, à 14:55:45 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »

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Re : Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #121 le: 28 août 2013, à 14:58:45 »
"Missing" your group stage involves losing maybe 2 or 3 REALLY short matches, so the argument is completely unvalid.

Well I have posted my opinion. I think it is clear now, so I won't be posting any additional messages.
If this problem remains unfixed for the next edition, Drew and me won't be among the participants. Not because we want to blackmail or force our will, but simply because a set-up of this nature doesn't deserve our efforts and money. Sorry for sounding harsh, but enough is enough.
Well the problem if I read you is the number of round to play which is too short (only 4 in BM and MR) in the group phase too have serious results. But we have also problem of time and to pass everyone to 6 round for example will be a problem for the noob.

Now if we take the CDM2012 system with 4 poules and 2 phases group => in the second phase group, for group 1-8 (and maybe groups 9-16 also) we could just for them pass to a 6 round (in BM and MR)! It could be done without adding time cause this players play faster! The group 1-8 is also the more important to determine the final table! What do you think about?
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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #122 le: 28 août 2013, à 15:05:47 »
@karel
take it easy man. I perfectly understand your frustration, and it is true that the current system isn't perfect (like all others ;) ) you have also to listen why your proposal may not to the right change to make. it is pointless to say 3 days after the cdm that you won't make it again if remains the same. even is it is not your purpose, you put useless pressure whereas you were not the only one saying things have to change.
we are discussing about it, but we need to be smart and not fall into annoying and classical oppositions (pure french translation :D)

I agree that we have to make the championship evolve. Considering all experience we have, I'm sure next will be greater than the last one (which was completely amazing)

so please stay here and be patient :-*

16-17 matchs de poule en gp/bm, c'est tout bonnement plus possible !

Au fait Harold, sans vouloir être vexant, j'ai l'impression que tu es de loin la personne que ça fait le plus chier que les poules soient aussi longues.

Concrètement, qui d'autre en a vraiment marre que les poules de battle/GP durent entre 60 et 100 minutes de + que celles de MR?
non crois moi, tous ceux à qui j'ai parlé trouvaient trop longues les poules, surtout de GP, mais aussi de BM ;)
et en aucune manière ca ne peut durer que 1h de plus.

pour le gp, je comprends l'argument de clbrun. faut vraiment qu'on réfléchisse à ce qu'on pourrait mettre en place pour que certains joueurs ne puissent pas jouer sur special et star.
CDM, où tu iras j'irai :-* O0

Bref, je conclue en espérant que vous ouvriez un peu les yeux... :(

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Re : Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #123 le: 28 août 2013, à 15:11:23 »
pour le gp, je comprends l'argument de clbrun. faut vraiment qu'on réfléchisse à ce qu'on pourrait mettre en place pour que certains joueurs ne puissent pas jouer sur special et star.

Comme dit + haut, ce sont surtout les affrontements entre quiches qui posent problème sur ces cups.

Un Neo vs quiche sur une Special reste bien + rapide qu'un double level 1 sur cette même cup...
ce que tu penses, je le sors à mes potes à l'apéro pour les faire marrer

What is said in La Suze, stays in La Suze  ;D

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Re : Re : Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #124 le: 28 août 2013, à 15:14:39 »
Down
"Missing" your group stage involves losing maybe 2 or 3 REALLY short matches, so the argument is completely unvalid.

Well I have posted my opinion. I think it is clear now, so I won't be posting any additional messages.
If this problem remains unfixed for the next edition, Drew and me won't be among the participants. Not because we want to blackmail or force our will, but simply because a set-up of this nature doesn't deserve our efforts and money. Sorry for sounding harsh, but enough is enough.
Well the problem if I read you is the number of round to play which is too short (only 4 in BM and MR) in the group phase too have serious results. But we have also problem of time and to pass everyone to 6 round for example will be a problem for the noob.

Now if we take the CDM2012 system with 4 poules and 2 phases group => in the second phase group, for group 1-8 (and maybe groups 9-16 also) we could just for them pass to a 6 round (in BM and MR)! It could be done without adding time cause this players play faster! The group 1-8 is also the more important to determine the final table! What do you think about?

Genre si je prends le MR de 2012 en phase 2 : in 6 round could give more serious results cause with 4 round it's clearly too short
Only 2x(4-0) over 28 matches :o
« Modifié: 28 août 2013, à 15:25:17 par djo »
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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #125 le: 28 août 2013, à 15:38:38 »
le scoub m'avait tellement volé lors de ce match de phase 2. quel petit merdeux ! ;D

sinon oui passer à 6 en MR est déjà une solution pour que les matchs entre joueurs serrés aient plus de valeur.
en BM aussi, mais ca risque de vraiment rajouter du temps. :-\

pour le GP, on définit certains joueurs pour lesquels c'est ok pour toutes les coupes, et on trouve un moyen pour que les autres ne fassent que mush et flower ?
CDM, où tu iras j'irai :-* O0

Bref, je conclue en espérant que vous ouvriez un peu les yeux... :(

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #126 le: 28 août 2013, à 15:43:57 »
You're right Harold, I was thinking that when I posted it, but still decided to go ahead with posting it and I'll explain why.
It was not, as you say, used as a method to put unnecessary pressure on the proceedings (though I can really see why one would think that of course). Rather I posted it simply because it's true: if the set-up remains largely unchanged, I will not come. Not out of annoyance or frustration, but simply because it wouldn't be worth bothering with an event that refuses to evolve.

That doesn't mean that I think that the proposal I made is the one that should be implimented...it's time to experiment, think about stuff and find out what works best. If it's another system then double elimination, but it works, fine. As long as it's sufficiently better than the current system.

Also, why not do 3 or 5 group matches instead of 4 or 6? I never understood ending with an even number at group stage; why bother with ties if you can prevent them very easily?  :P
« Modifié: 28 août 2013, à 17:33:41 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »

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Re : Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #127 le: 28 août 2013, à 15:48:20 »
sinon oui passer à 6 en MR est déjà une solution pour que les matchs entre joueurs serrés aient plus de valeur.
en BM aussi, mais ca risque de vraiment rajouter du temps. :-\
En MR si cela ne concerne que le groupe 1-8 ça ne rajoutera clairement pas de temps.
Pour le BM je suis moins un spécialiste mais est-ce qu'un match en 6 round entre 2 top player dure plus longtemps qu'un match en 4 round entre 2 noob

pour le GP, on définit certains joueurs pour lesquels c'est ok pour toutes les coupes, et on trouve un moyen pour que les autres ne fassent que mush et flower ?
De la même manière qu'on attribue les TV sur base des niveaux on peut faire un test pour voir si c'est 2 noob qui se rencontrent et leur attribuer une autre cup!
Mais on peut aussi imposer dans le règlement que le joueur doit faire give up quand le 4ème joueur a passé la ligne... surtout s'il lui reste 2 tours à faire...
Ou plus simple encore : autoriser (ou imposer) de faire le match en 50cc ou 100cc... mais ça risque au final de ralonger encore plus ::)
« Modifié: 28 août 2013, à 15:54:36 par djo »
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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #128 le: 28 août 2013, à 15:54:39 »
I'm kinda in favour of the double elimination system with 2 brackets (winner/looser). The only thing that worries/bothers me is the fact that the winner of the looser bracket may face the winner of the winner brackets. I mean, if he already lost one match, then he clearly ISN'T the best player in the tournament, so why letting him one more chance to win the whole thing ?

When I was younger and played badminton at school, I was competing in official tournaments that were held that way:

One winner bracket and one loser bracket with a double elimination system:
- the guy who wins everything in the winner brackets wins the tournament. No extra match with the winner of the looser bracket.
- the guys in the loser bracket (those who already lost one match) compete for the 2nd place (i.e the final match of the loser bracket determines who is gonna be 2nd and who is gonna be 3rd).

Would that sound correct to you ?
Mais surtout, je dois faire un très, très gros aparté, où je ne vais pas y aller avec le dos de la cuillère, sur la partie "SMK = eSport", aspect sur lequel certains se fourrent le doigt dans l'œil jusque dans des zones inexplorées de leur anatomie

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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #129 le: 28 août 2013, à 15:56:44 »
And you start the Loser Bracket from the 1/8 or from the 1/4?
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Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #130 le: 28 août 2013, à 16:07:33 »
I'm kinda in favour of the double elimination system with 2 brackets (winner/looser). The only thing that worries/bothers me is the fact that the winner of the looser bracket may face the winner of the winner brackets. I mean, if he already lost one match, then he clearly ISN'T the best player in the tournament, so why letting him one more chance to win the whole thing ?

When I was younger and played badminton at school, I was competing in official tournaments that were held that way:

One winner bracket and one loser bracket with a double elimination system:
- the guy who wins everything in the winner brackets wins the tournament. No extra match with the winner of the looser bracket.
- the guys in the loser bracket (those who already lost one match) compete for the 2nd place (i.e the final match of the loser bracket determines who is gonna be 2nd and who is gonna be 3rd).

Would that sound correct to you ?

This for me also, is the biggest problem with the double elimination system. I think your solution would avoid the problem elegantly. So yes. In favour.  :)
It would be weird to have the silver medal decided after the gold, but it's probably the best solution available.
« Modifié: 28 août 2013, à 16:10:24 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #131 le: 28 août 2013, à 17:25:20 »
Yeh maybe could work.

Theres probably a lot of people who dont like the double elimination system because of the whole "oh youve just lost, but have another go at it to see if you can win" thing.

But still, maybe worth a try, and if it is crap, scrap it. Also as long as there are no last minute database issues.

Also the 4 matches in a group instead of 3 gives the Draw points. Otherwise it is win and loss only, and there would be less goal average points with 3, which could cause more ties in points maybe. 5 would be too long possibly.

Im open to try something, but we should definitely scrap it if it doesnt work. Maybe change GP and MR back round to the correct way again. Battle mode wont feel as slow then, and i wont play like crazy on the last day as the 2nd day, allowing Flo to have a nice Golden Friday ;)

Anyway does anyone want to try and create a sample double elimination bracket on excel that can be derived from either 2 or 4 poules (perhaps the latter if we get a big crowd next year). Then we can experiment with the system.

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #132 le: 28 août 2013, à 17:36:22 »
Theres probably a lot of people who dont like the double elimination system because of the whole "oh youve just lost, but have another go at it to see if you can win" thing.

Exactly, but Flo's solution solves that. You won't get another chance at winning the thing. You've lost your go in that sense.
But an unlucky draw won't unfairly damage your overall ranking in the mode either, so it's the best of both worlds.  :D

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #133 le: 28 août 2013, à 17:53:46 »
Theres probably a lot of people who dont like the double elimination system because of the whole "oh youve just lost, but have another go at it to see if you can win" thing.

Exactly, but Flo's solution solves that. You won't get another chance at winning the thing. You've lost your go in that sense.
But an unlucky draw won't unfairly damage your overall ranking in the mode either, so it's the best of both worlds.  :D


Ok, but a skanker *cough* can still ruin someone later from getting a Bronze or Silver medal later?

I guess no system will ever be perfect, but again, it could be tried.
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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #134 le: 28 août 2013, à 17:59:11 »
well, i guess i am better to find out the problems in new system propositions than to propose myself new systems (despite the fact i proposed several new systems in the past, such as a new bonification system, the new TT system to replace one try...). but the fact is that i often think that new propositions are worse than current system.  :-\

on one hand, there are complains about the poules which takes too long (15 matchs are too much). on the other hand, there complains about the poules matchs which are made on a too little amount of map/ tracks (4 rounds is too short). so you would like to make 10 matchs of 6 rounds ??? if yes, it would take the same amout of time i think. so maybe you would like to do only 7-8 matchs ? then i personnaly think it is not enough and that s why i prefer keeping the current system by far.

i can understand why some guys want the double elim system, but i still think it won't resolve anything and would create other problems (like increasing the length of the final phasis, which takes already too much time on my opinion, especially due to the players who prefer watching other matchs instead of playing theirs).
lets take KVD's example in GP with players like KVD, Scoub, Mario, Gatchan, Harold and Geo : ok, they are all pretendant for medals and it might be a bit unfair if one of them has to face neo/ sami in quaterfinal. but with the 2012 system (excluding the 2013 random quarterfinals), if they have to face neo/sami in GP, it is because they were only #4 or #5 of their poule (assuming that neo/sami were #1), so i think it is fair because they just should been better in poule in order to face someone else than neo/sami in quaterfinal.
but ok, let's say it is really unfair. i guess most of us will agree than neo/sami will probably be finalists, because of the gap between these 2 megatop GP players compared to other strong players. so there are 2 places left for semi finalists. if i count the strong players who can pretend to a medal (KVD, Scoub, Mario, Gatchan, Harold and Geo), we have 6 people. all of them just can't be in the top 4, it s mathematical! so even if 2 of them have the badluck to face neo/sami in quarterfinal, they will probably eliminated there and end in the top8 as quarterfinalists. does it mean that they are not at their real place, or being #5-8 isn't relevant knowing their GP level? on my opinion, it is perfectly relevant, since 2 (sami/neo) + 6 (KVD, Scoub, Mario, Gatchan, Harold and Geo) = top8. so i do not see any problem here  :P
once more, the double elim would just give another chance to a player who have been eliminated due to his own counterperformance (in poules => hard bracket or in final phasis => elimination), which on my opinion has no justification and create other problems (especially length of the final phasis). whatever you do, some guys will always have to face neo/sami : just be better in poules and it will be ok ;)

about the draw possibility in poules (2-2), the fact is that it can exist in GP (even if it s quite uncommon).
for other modes, there were only 3 rounds per MR/BM match in 2002, and it provoked multiple equalities in rankings. for instance, in MR, 16 participants => 5 guys with 10 wins and 5 loses, and 3 guys with the same goal average => how do we rank them?
that s why we decided to evolve (yes, we did it) by making 4 rounds per match in BM / MR. in addition to the more accurate rankings in poules, it also have the great advantage (on my opinion) to play all of the 4 battle maps. so i think it would be a really thing not to enable draws in poules.

finally, some guys tell that 4 rounds is too short in MR / BM poules because it s easy to lose points by badluck, even against weaker players. but they also say that most of matchs are pointless, because the level gap between good players and loads of noobs is too big. i guess if those matchs were so pointless, strong players will still win 3-1 even if the other player gets a lightning! :P adding more rounds in MR / BM would just a bit more prevent outsiders to perform well in poules, killing the surprises possibilities, which is sad i think.

i really see the double elim system as a tool to enable a few top players (smk aristocracy?) to play more and to diminish playing time and chances of outsiders  :(
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