Auteur Sujet: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver  (Lu 86538 fois)

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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #315 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 01:39:33 »
non à priori ni néo ni djo n'ont proposé la super finale, qui est je l'avoue un peu incohérente, quoique pas trop puisque jouée sur deux matches, ce qui laisse droit à jouer une belle si jamais les joueurs se sont déjà rencontrés avant, donc in the absolute ils auraient aussi pu la proposer, sauf que ça aurait fait deux matches de plus (un peu abusé là par contre niveau timing ::))
« Modifié: 03 septembre 2013, à 01:41:56 par ZTI »

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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #316 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 01:41:56 »
D'ailleurs on ne parle plus du tout de ces histoires de timing...

C'est vrai ça, si on adoptait un nouveau système non testable en conditions CDM, sans réfléchir aux conséquences en terme d'horaires, et que ça finit comme d'habitude voire pire? :D
ce que tu penses, je le sors à mes potes à l'apéro pour les faire marrer

What is said in La Suze, stays in La Suze  ;D

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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #317 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 01:43:40 »
oh et puis vous faites chier à discuter de règlement ou d'organisation, occupez vous d'abord de chercher une salle :D ::) ::)

(je charrie ;) )

Bonne nuit à tous :D

Noctambule si tu nous lis c'est le moment de venir rattraper tes 4 pages et demi de retard sur ce topic >:D (écrites en l'espace de 15 heures :o c'est ce qu'on appelle un hot topic O0)

Hello,

en effet, j'ai tout lu hier soir (suite au message de géo, j'étais un peu curieux :) ) et ca m'a pas empeché de dormir (bon signe pour vous ::) )

 >:D >:D >:D

Edit : et sinon relax Kartie, chaque année on refait toujours le monde le CDM, mais au final on finit tout le temps par retomber sur un système pas trop chiadé et le CDM se déroule toujours sans trop d'encombres. ;)

Perso je serais partant pour reprendre le système de 2012, mais après rien n'interdit de tester de nouveaux systèmes (à mettre en pratique sur des petits tournois d'abord : style fun cup, winter cup, ODB, snesot, etc, ce qui veut dire que selon le nombre de participants, ça pourrait démarrer direct aux quarts, et en extrapolant on peut imaginer ce que ça donnerait au CDM)

Bisous à tous et peace :-* :-* :-* ^^
« Modifié: 03 septembre 2013, à 02:04:35 par ZTI »

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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #318 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 09:43:08 »
c'est bon j'ai refait mon retard (dans le métro ::))

j'ai forcément un/plusieurs avis. le nouveau système proposé comporte ses avantages comme ses inconvénients (comme le système actuel). je ne suis choqué par aucun d'entre eux.
d'ailleurs, j'avais déjà mon idée depuis un moment : quiconque est allé sur wikipedia a compris le schéma sans attendre plusieurs jours le post de néo.

par contre, je sais pas si j'ai envie de discuter avec une bande de gamins qui disent que tu les reverras plus si ca se passe pas comme ils le veulent. vous etes tellement fatigants ! c'est la meme rengaine à chaque fois que quelque chose est proposé (et vous êtes tous concernés : vous avez tous été pour ou contre un changement à un moment donné)
c'est l'état d'esprit associé à une passion de gamin en mode compétition/vacances qui me fait venir et revenir chaque année.

vous êtes chiants, car avant de proposer/argumenter quoi que ce soit, il faudrait vous parler indépendamment pour assouplir votre position, vous faire comprendre qu'on veut tous la même chose : un beau et grand CDM.

bref, je crois que réellement je me lasse. démerdez-vous !
je rejoindrai ce débat quand il sera devenu un peu plus sain :P
CDM, où tu iras j'irai :-* O0

Bref, je conclue en espérant que vous ouvriez un peu les yeux... :(

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #319 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 09:53:12 »
Relax Pierre, double elimination would not be the death of CDM, it would be the rebirth.

Look at these major gaming tournaments, which all have double elim format and over 100k - 1 million viewers on Twitch. This shows that gaming audience can handle a slightly more complex system and are in favour of it, because it brings more top matches where stuff is at stake.

-EVO (fighting games, including SF4)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_Championship_Series
"The Evolution Championship Series is an annual eSports event that focuses exclusively on fighting games. In fighting game communities it is commonly referred to as "Evo", and is currently the premier video game tournament for fighting games. The tournament uses the double elimination format."

-GSL Starcraft II uses an altered format of double elimination. One of the most popular e-sport games in recent years.

-DOTA 2 international (DOTA2, biggest e-game currently, with over 1 million prize money)
http://www.dota2.com/international/mainevent/results/lower/


These are some prime examples of major e-gaming tournaments with extremely popular broadcasts on Twitch. I listed these 3, but virtually all of them use double elimination. When there are is a lot of money at stake, one would like to reach as accurate a ranking as possible and give the viewers as much entertainment as possible.

I'm not saying that we have to follow the example, solely because the big boys do it...but the opposite, claiming that such a system would be the death sentence of CDM, is hereby forever sent to the domain of fairy tales, given the above examples. Another important thing to realize is that people in Twitch chat during the CDM stream were actually requesting an expanded KO phase and fewer group stage matches. I wasn't closely following the chat myself, but Rub told me this. He should post in this topic later to back up that claim.

If the CDM would have been in this format from the start no-one would have ever complained. I have a feeling it's mostly the historical component of being used to do it otherwise that makes people opposed.

I also think Harold's post is very justified. Let's not get carried away too much. I realize I may have started this "boycotting" trend myself, but let's first all agree that SMK competition is awesome and worth joining, no matter what the format. Eventhough I'm highly frustrated with the harshness and inaccuracy of the current system, I am considering to drop my ultimatum. Let's continue talking first.  :D
« Modifié: 03 septembre 2013, à 10:34:00 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #320 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 11:57:37 »
Something weird happened with SSF4 though, the UK champion beat the EVO world Champion 10-0 at another event. He was asking if the system of Evo even is accurate then. Not trying to bash loser's brackets and stuff here, as im up for trying other stuff to see what happens. But i explained to him that maybe it was a random result that could happen, no matter what the format.

We should perhaps consider trying this, then if we are all wrong and it really causes a bigger mess then we don't do it again. A bit like switching the MR and GP cups round. I dont mind winning the 2nd day mode and messing up the last day mode every year, but it is a boring pattern for me. Maybe put battle mode on the 2nd day?  ::)  ;D

Anyway for next year im more excited to know how many people and who we can get to go. We can speak to some of the attendees perhaps to get some ideas also, as some will be returning members maybe who couldn't come this year.
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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #321 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 13:07:09 »
Something weird happened with SSF4 though, the UK champion beat the EVO world Champion 10-0 at another event. He was asking if the system of Evo even is accurate then. Not trying to bash loser's brackets and stuff here, as im up for trying other stuff to see what happens. But i explained to him that maybe it was a random result that could happen, no matter what the format.

Well SSF4 is paper/scissors/rock due to character match-ups. The result of EVO could still be very accurate, meaning the winner is the best SSF4 player in the world, when taking into account all variables. It could just be that the UK champ (Ryan) has a very effective match-up and style vs the world champion, but Ryan's ability to beat other top players is significantly lower.

So the result you describe (Ryan beating World champ) is definitely an artefact of the SSF4 match-up system, not of double elimination perse.

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #322 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 13:08:21 »
Something weird happened with SSF4 though, the UK champion beat the EVO world Champion 10-0 at another event. He was asking if the system of Evo even is accurate then. Not trying to bash loser's brackets and stuff here, as im up for trying other stuff to see what happens. But i explained to him that maybe it was a random result that could happen, no matter what the format.

Well SSF4 is paper/scissors/rock due to character match-ups. The result of EVO could still be very accurate, meaning the winner is the best SSF4 player in the world, when taking into account all variables. It could just be that the UK champ (Ryan) has a very effective match-up and style vs the world champion, but Ryan's ability to beat other top players is significantly lower.

Yeh basically i was trying to explain to them that theres no right or wrong answer sometimes.
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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #323 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 13:09:39 »
How did Ryan fair last Evo actually? Off-topic, but out of curiosity. I missed the stream because we were having ESA in Sweden.

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #324 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 13:14:00 »
How did Ryan fair last Evo actually? Off-topic, but out of curiosity. I missed the stream because we were having ESA in Sweden.

I didnt really get to catch up with it all either, but he reached as far as he could i think, competition is getting harder over time. But hes been doing well at various other tournos hes travelling to.
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Re : Re : Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #325 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 13:40:43 »
Le tableau de djo est le plus kiffant, car donne sa chance à tous les losers (y compris ceux de 1/8e

Oui, et comme ça on met deux heures de plus à faire les phases finales... :P
Super le putain de système de djo, en effet ;D Il veut pas faire des matchs de classement pour les joueurs de la 9e à la 16e place, tant qu'il y est ? ::)
Je (re)débarque... pas mal de messages depuis hier! :-X
Alors tout d'abord remettre l'église au milieu du village : je n'ai jamais été pour ce système de double elim / loser bracket. J'ai juste pris le temps de faire une illustration pour voir ce que cela pourrait donner et faire avancer la discussion. Après tout je suis toujours ouvert à d'autres propositions! Et d'ailleurs si le système actuel ne fait pas l'unanimité on se doit de tenter d'autres pistes : parfois de petits changements apportent beaucoup! ;)

Comme on l'a vu le système que je présentais (loser starting after the 1/8) est intenable car double le nombre de matchs de la phase finale et rajoute même deux tours supplémentaires après la grande finale, deux tours que personne de regardera à 2h00 du mat! :-X

Et je rejoins Mario quand il dit ceci
• finie la finale entre les médaillés d'or et d'argent avec ce système, c'est ça?
• on va donc jouer encore + de matches alors que vous vous plaignez tous que ce soit trop long?
• un mec éliminé en quarts continue de jouer et peut être vice-champion?
Et Flo qui signale un truc pas terrible
comme une potentielle rencontre dans le loser's bracket entre deux joueurs s'étant déjà affronter dans le winner's bracket.
En croisant les matchs on devrait pouvoir eviter ce cas sauf match de la 2eme place

Maintenant tout n'est pas à jeter dans la proposition de Neo et un bon compromis pourrait être trouvé qui gommerait les 4 points problématique (pour moi aussi) ci-dessus. Il suffit simplement de supprimer le dernier match entre le n°2 et le n°3 qui n'a que très peu d'intérêt (juste switcher le 2nd et le 3rd) et qui arrive de plus après la grande finale! L'enjeu des loser bracket est donc la médaille de bronze (3rd) et cela reste un beau lot de consolation pour les éliminés des quarts (qui doivent alors gagner encore 3 matchs)! L'argent (2nd) c'est too much pour qqun qui s'est planté en 1/4, sérieux! :-\

Un petit dessin :


Et au point de vue timing, cela n'allonge rien si le match pour le bronze (3rd) se joue en même temps que la grande finale et en moins de rounds gagnants!

Vous en pensez quoi?
« Modifié: 03 septembre 2013, à 13:48:13 par djo »
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Re : Re: Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #326 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 13:53:41 »
almost everything i wanted to say has already been said, but some precisions :

Why would it not be a deserved result? So sprinter X got eliminated in quarter final, but he ran against Usain Bolt, the dominant world champion. If sprinter X can beat all the others and is 2nd best in the world, shouldn't he then have a chance to actually prove that? Right now we would deny him this chance, merely because he had the misfortune to draw vs Bolt early. That's what I call completement dingue.  >:D
like mario said, if the sprinter X has to play against usain bolt in quarterfinal, it s because he didn't play well enough in poules in order to avoid usain in quarterfinal, so this is mr X's fault. it can also be because usain isn't in a very good shape and was't #1 of poules phasis, so he might be beatable in quarterfinal. in conclusion, for me, there is no problem anywhere here (since i think that each poules match is long enough to have accurate results, even if surprises are possible, which is just perfect for me).

but let's admit that there is a problem and that sprinter X should be given another chance. then, he should not play only against one other quarterloser, but against all other quarterlosers, and even against all the other quarterwinners to be sure he should be #2 just behind usain ! with the double elim, the system will still be unfair since a quarterloser can have the luck to play against an outsider who made a great perf in 1/8e, so that he will probably be beaten in every longer match after...

if the loser bracket starts only at quarterfinals, it would increase my personnal feeling that it is "a spolation of the noobs/ average players' playing time for the benefit of top players only". and like mario also said, the main thing is that for me, the CDM is a championship where we award performances, instead of making everything possible to be sure to give medals to the theorical top players of each mode. so for me, if a top players is eliminated, it is totally part of the cdm, and there is nothing to be against. top players HAVE TO be top players in the facts (the d day), not just in theory or on internet rankings :P

the other thing is the (for me) huge problem to play a second time in loser bracket against someone you already played in winners bracket : this makes non sense for me, whether the result is the same or not  ??? if this happens however and the result is different, then it would just prove that we can't always say that one player is better than another, it depends of the tracks, the items, the pressure, etc... in the case of X and Y, imagine X beated Y first, then X lost against the future winner of the mode, he played against Y a second time (in loser bracket) and for some reason lost against Y who wins a medal : after the cdm, X will say "come on guys, why Y get a second chance over me and won a medal, and not me? i was knocked out by the future winner, there is 1-1 between me and Y, why should he have an advantage over me? if he also played against the big winner, he would have lost too ! it is unfair, i should be ranked before Y !" => what would you answer to X ?



i also agree neo when he asks not to put someone's participation (even for some modes) into the balance :P this is not an argument  :(

but when Mr Meteo pretends that me clbrun, former president, decides of what will be done or not, it pisses me out  :P >:( :-X
so far, i have just given my thoughts about the double elim system and other reforms, exactly like mario / karel / neo / others did. i have only one vote (and no veto), like every ffsmk member, and i use my vote when i am concerned.
about the "it's difficult for clbrun to stop using the power he had several years ago" part, i will just remind that being president of FFSMK has always been a burden for me, i became president only to save the cdm because nobody else wanted to take franck's succession (if there were other candidates, i wasn't aware). i was happy to give my "title" to mario, because i think he would do the job well, but also and especially to get rid of this charge. i don't like such "president power", because in one hand, i wanted to be as democratical as possible, and in the other hand i was tempted to overpass some "unacceptable" (for me) decisions (like for the TT coeff vote :-[ of which i am not proud, but i did what had to be done in my opinion).
so neo's accusation is just a fucking assumption  >:( nothing to add, let's talk about more important things  :D


another point is the twitch spectators wishes : it s a good thing if CDM is followed by many people, but i think it is a mistake to change the cdm in order to satisfy twitch spectators : according to me, we make the cdm for US (i mean us, smk fans, not United States ::) ), not for some internet spectators ! or maybe next year we should give up the TT mode in order to show them more 2 players mode?  :-X
for me, spectators are just (well, almost) NOTHING to care about ! if we make the finals sooner in the evening, it is not to enable 200 people to watch it on twitch, it is only to enable each finalist to play in good conditions, without sleeping on his chair  :P


on thing that might be forgotten is that players becomes better each year, so it will be more difficult each year to know if a "X beats Y" result is an exploit / a good perf from X / a bad perf from Y / normal. drew of karel had hard matchs, but the more often they could have won them, it wasn't "unwinnable matchs"! so a double elim will not solve anything (especially since for me tehre is no problem), because there will be much more big matchs in the future, even in 1/8th finals i m sure ! the hierarchy of smk isn't written into stone for eternity*, if a champion fails, it is not injustice / inaccuracy, it is just the end of one champion's reign.

* but chamionship system is  ;D :-X ::) :plume:
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Re: Re : Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #327 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 13:55:45 »
et fait parti du jeu...

I've heard this argument time and time again. It's false.
It is not part of the game. It's part of the system.
Anything part of the game is something that is programmed into SMK, like being able to dodge red shells, doing LBs, etc.
Playing a specific match and immediately being eliminated after is not part of the game, it's part of a system that we can actively change, should we want to.

EDIT: Clbrun, spectactors ARE something to PASSIONATELY care about, so again I strongly disagree with you. They are the future and lifeline of the SMK competition. It would be extremely selfish of us to only focus on the current generation of SMK players. If we want to develop this competition and perpetuate it for future generations, being as appealing as possible for internet watchers is top priority! Twitch is now the ultimate medium to spread the love for SMK and it's competition. We would be foolish to neglect and completely disregard the wishes of our followers.

I will not go into too much detail about your examples. I agree we're not there to preserve some sort of ranking written in stone beforehand, but that's not an argument to sacrifice accuracy where it can easily be improved. Regardless of which system is used, players that have surpassed former champions in skill can, and likely will, finish above them. But with the new system we would at least be certain that it is earned by SKILL and not by luckily avoiding some top shot player until the final round. And that's the way it should be. Not theoretical ability, not luck, but skill.

Of course double elim is not 100% accurate either, but it's a step upwards to ensure skill gets rewarded properly.
« Modifié: 03 septembre 2013, à 14:43:55 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »

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Re: Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #328 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 14:26:53 »
I am tempted to perform an extensive statistical analysis to prove a point.
It's about the sub-top (or sub monster lvl) players Gatchan, Harold, Mario, Geo, ScouB and me. We are all of similar-ish level throughout the years, in the 2 racing modes, GP and MR. However, I'm willing our relative rankings to each other in these modes are almost completely determined by who faced Sami/Neo at what stage of the tournament.

There is this observation to suggest that what I'm writing is true: (If I'm not mistaken) Neo and Sami have not been beaten in the KO stage of a racing mode since 2009 (by anyone else then Neo or Sami)!! There was 1 exception, when I beat Neo in semi final of MR. But that's in 4 CDMs / 8 tournaments!

In my opinion it's a massive problem when the most important variable to determine the ranking order of the sub-top players (the group mentioned above) is at which stage they face Sami/Neo and NOT how well they perform against eachother in KOs.  :-X
I might do the analysis to determine the coefficients of determination, I suspect it to be highly significant (stage of meeting monster is more influential than results vs each other).
« Modifié: 03 septembre 2013, à 14:44:48 par KVD, the Chuck Norris of SMK »

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Re : Règlement 2013: points à améliorer/changer/conserver
« Réponse #329 le: 03 septembre 2013, à 14:47:33 »
Personelly, i understand the system of twice elimination or double hihi (even if we talked about less matchs- finales too later)
but u forget an important thing:
to reach 1/8 are some closed and will become, that's why i think we'll loose lots of players cause they will anticipe a no-qualification, so no raison to come at cdm, we must do things for us like a second tournament with 1/8 of finals   >:D with not that, we'll loose Narnet, Burel..