Auteur Sujet: Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.  (Lu 12108 fois)

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Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #60 le: 05 septembre 2015, à 19:17:20 »
64 races during which there is a pandemonium of noise with TV's around you at full blast, against a mix of opponents that is very likely different than the ones your fellow quarter final losers have faced...

But if you do think group stage is sufficient for deciding a better pecking order, then we should attribute more points to the group stage in relation to how much you get for reaching a certain level in the KO stage. Is the semi finalist that had to beat Conor better than the quarter finalist that lost to Neo? With the current system the difference (in nr of points) between QF and SF qualification strongly overshadows the difference you can generate by performing superior in group stage.
If we want group stage to have a discriminating function, than we'd better start rewarding it accordingly.
« Modifié: 05 septembre 2015, à 19:25:24 par KVD »

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Re : Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #61 le: 05 septembre 2015, à 21:36:09 »
Sami qualified as #1 in the group stage, therefore it stands to reason that he would normally end up in the top 4. However, he had one match where he slipped.

Something that never happened to him before, plus he lost by quite a margin (7-4) which in itself should at least make one consider the possibility that he didn't play as well as previous years to secure his way to the semis like previous years (which was blatant to me and I'm not the only one). And when you look at the rest of his CDM (no semis reached in multi and a poor TT final) that theory gets confirmed.

Let me ask you this, do you honestly believe that if Sami and Jey played their match 10 times that Jey would win more than half of the encounters?

Beyond the point even if I could just answer that I have no idea what might have happened in that case (precisely because Sami wasn't even close to his level of past CDM/E). The CDM rewards how you perform on the D-day just like any cup does (the fact that it's called championships is pure semantics, the format is that of a cup) even if we changed it to double elimination that would not change, if anything it would make things worse as it would only take two losses to get kicked out quickly. Even a player like you could be eliminated after two matches with a bad draw combined with bad luck and you would then bitch on here about how unfair the format is.
Also it would mean that most players would only play a couple of matches for the whole CDM anyway (because no, DE + Group Stage isn't a logistical possibility) and that's like giving those blokes the finger (being one of the potential finger-receiver I'm not so fond of the idea).

Obviously a player needs to have the skill to threathen someone like Sami to begin with. Jey has that. When the skill levels of two players are somewhat overlapping, the better player does not automatically win each and every match. It's fairly basic game theory (and has nothing to do with vague alien forces I assure you). Variance can have a big impact, especially in single elimination format. I once knocked out Neo in MR; he got me back 7-0 the next year. Had our skill levels significantly changed? Not really. Just the dynamics of the matches that were very different. To buffer a little for the variance, I would favour a double elimination system. We only meet up like this once a year, so why not make the pecking-order a little more accurate?

See what I've just wrote. Unless you change the CDM to an actual championship (and we don't have the means to do it) what you point out isn't something that will change anytime soon. And even then, the skills wouldn't be the only decisive factor. They never are. Just like you pointed out once you're good enough to threaten the big dogs, beating them becomes possible and that's where other factors like motivation (which you can easily lack of when you've won it all, like, even Neo lost GP!) start to matter. Change the format as much as you want, that part will never change. I think what you're trying to fix is something that's a natural part of EVERY kind of competition in EVERY sport/game.
And like I already hear you arguing that you don't want it 100% perfect but only 'more accurate' (I personally think it's pretty accurate, I mean Sami hardly showed a level that's even top 3 material and as we have lots of players with a common overall level it follows that the battle for the second place should be tough). Well alright then explain to me how a system that potentially kicks out a good player in two-three matches in case of a bad draw (even assuming the draw is not random that might still happen) is any more accurate. At best it's good at ranking the top 3-4 which is already pretty accurate. Even putting the fact that DE excludes 75% of the players from the competition aside, using it DE for this reason isn't pertinent.

EVO (biggest SF community event worldwide) has been using double elimination since its conception. Try telling SF players that EVO has no soul and see how they will react. They will probably punch you in the face or think of you as a talking bag of nonsense.
As for double elim @ CDM, of course it can be done, it's just a matter of making a clever system and not being stuck in conservative thinking patterns.

Talk about a strawman argument. Only sheer intellectual dishonesty can lead one to think my post implied that any tournament using DE has no soul (that would mean it's the case of some of my tournies on SNESOT and believe me I think my SNESOT tournies shit soul by the bucket) but hah well I'll elaborate. The EVO and the CDM never worked on the same scale or even had the same goals so it follows that they don't have the same soul. EVO is a multi-tournaments event that rewards in cash prizes players that have qualified for it. CDM is a one-game tournament on one week (that in itself will always prevent it from being at a similar scale) that gathers a relatively small community in comparison that only gets a decent crowd to attend because it's open to everyone (which isn't what a DE format would allow). Ours is a niche game that will never get the popularity of the vs fighting competitions (that don't even work around only one game themselves which is pretty telling) so to think we can have what they have (i.e qualifiers, cash prizes things like that) is quite delusional to say the least.
Also : beyond the 'open to everyone' appeal the CDM has, the reason lots of newcomers keep coming back -on a merely competitive level- is because they want to improve their rankings. That's how we got blokes like Salim, Jey, Jarmou, Conor or even me to be fully part of the whole thing every year after their first participation. Do you think we would've come back every year with a DE format that would have excluded most of us after two matches? I for one would not have. At best I would have attended to CDM 2011 and given up after realizing my improvements were useless (cause I would prolly have been kicked out after two matches in 2011 as well).

Anyway my point is :

-DE will exclude a big part of the players and discourage them to come back
-It will prolly weaken the community that is already a small one by strongly decreasing the CDM's attendance
-It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist IMO (and I'm pretty sure it's not just me who feels that way)
« Modifié: 05 septembre 2015, à 21:43:25 par tif »

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Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #62 le: 05 septembre 2015, à 22:02:49 »
i agree with scoub and tif, but i also agree with karel on one single point : to minimize the effect of a bad performance in playoffs (like sami's maybe) or an unlucky defeat, i guess diminishing the bonifications points to strengthen the group stage points would be a good thing.

the gap (in term of points, not skills) between the guys in the top4 is to big imo : the 2nd has twice more points than the 4th (and this gap is quite equivalent with a good group stage performance) but he just won one match more (in the semi final).
and the 2000 points for the winner is just ridiculously too much imo too : it made drew finish overall 6th, before jey (who made 2 semis + 1 quarter + 1 top16) although drew didn't qualify in TT and was twice eliminated in the first playoff match. for me, the overall ranking should depend of the overall skills of each player and thus not be so over-rewarding for a "one mode performance", so i guess jey should have been better ranked than drew because he was more polyvalent (but maybe not before sami, it's hard to tell)
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Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #63 le: 05 septembre 2015, à 22:07:05 »
@tif, almost all of your arguments can be dismissed by adding a group stage before a double elimination KO system. I never said we should throw away any type of group stage, merely that we'd need to tweak it so it all fits.
Yes I was using EVO as an example of a succesful double elimination tournament set-up, whilst still maintaining a soul. I would call it intellectual dishonesty from your part that you're overextending the analogy in the sense that every other parameter (popularity, multi games, cash prizes) would need to be equal to make the comparison a valid one. I really don't think this is the case. It's perfectly possible to think of smaller scale tournaments where double elimination is applied and it working a charm. If you're going to bash it, please use reasons that are necessarily tied to double elimination (i.e. don't strawman me, pot calling the kettle black you see). NOT having a group stage, thereby giving the finger to the little guys (a.k.a loss of soul  ::)), is something fixed upstream of the KO stages and not something that has (m)any implications for how the KO stages would be run.

Also, if Sami was really clearly underperforming (like you are claiming was very visibly the case), then how the hell did he finish top of the groups?  ;D Also throwing the fact that he reached the TT final into an argument where you're building on how much poorer his CDM performance was....it really seems like grasping onto straws to me. Yes he drove a safe MC2 in the final, but again he WON the TT group stage and only Neo beat him in the end, also due to getting drawn one of the few track where Neo is much superior to him. Sami was a whisker away from the gold medal in TT for fucks sake.

Also, that Sami did not get knocked out earlier in other years is not necessarily a valid argument, it's perfectly possible that the variance is as such that it only tips the balance once in 7 years (especially because now there are more players that have some overlap with his skill level).
You may be very right that he did not reach the lvl that he normally does, but nevertheless I would be willing to wager that he would have reached top-4 in both MR and GP with a double elimination system.

@clbrun, agreed with your analysis there.
« Modifié: 05 septembre 2015, à 22:41:48 par KVD »

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Re : Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #64 le: 05 septembre 2015, à 23:52:18 »
i agree with scoub and tif, but i also agree with karel on one single point : to minimize the effect of a bad performance in playoffs (like sami's maybe) or an unlucky defeat, i guess diminishing the bonifications points to strengthen the group stage points would be a good thing.

the gap (in term of points, not skills) between the guys in the top4 is to big imo : the 2nd has twice more points than the 4th (and this gap is quite equivalent with a good group stage performance) but he just won one match more (in the semi final).
and the 2000 points for the winner is just ridiculously too much imo too : it made drew finish overall 6th, before jey (who made 2 semis + 1 quarter + 1 top16) although drew didn't qualify in TT and was twice eliminated in the first playoff match. for me, the overall ranking should depend of the overall skills of each player and thus not be so over-rewarding for a "one mode performance", so i guess jey should have been better ranked than drew because he was more polyvalent (but maybe not before sami, it's hard to tell)

+1 :police: c'est quelque chose à creuser effectivement en plus de ce que j'ai suggéré
« Modifié: 05 septembre 2015, à 23:54:11 par Zodd »

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Re : Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #65 le: 06 septembre 2015, à 00:58:14 »
@tif, almost all of your arguments can be dismissed by adding a group stage before a double elimination KO system. I never said we should throw away any type of group stage, merely that we'd need to tweak it so it all fits.

Tweak it all you want it's just not logistically possible. Like I previously said every multiplayer mode would take forever to get done in those conditions not to mention the top players would be completely exhausted half way through the CDM (most are already very tired by the end of Battle Mode).

I would call it intellectual dishonesty from your part that you're overextending the analogy in the sense that every other parameter (popularity, multi games, cash prizes) would need to be equal to make the comparison a valid one.

It actually takes a huge load of intellectual dishonesty to understand my post that way because I clearly NEVER implied that. Also thanks for purposely overlooking most of my points just to make my post sound ludicrous:

It's perfectly possible to think of smaller scale tournaments where double elimination is applied and it working a charm. If you're going to bash it, please use reasons that are necessarily tied to double elimination

Read my post again it's all in there. Keep in mind that Group Stage + DE isn't possible on a logistical level this time.

As for Sami underperforming... Well I finished first in one GS and he's always excelled in short matches. I mean it's common knowledge that he isn't even close to being a favorite for Battle Mode title yet he's often done extremely well in the group stages of that mode along the years. Most people who've seen him play in KO stage agree that he wasn't even close to his best level. Now that may be very subjective but you're asking us to change the format on a very subjective basis yourself (because you consider -against most people's opinion- his overall ranking as too low. If that's not subjective I don't know what is).

Anyway. If you going to reply again I'd suggest you include some way of making that group stage + DE plan of yours fit the schedule (allow me to remind you that every mode starts at 1 pm and is supposed to end at 1 am -2 am TOPS) in your response. Because so far it's all pointless talk.

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Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #66 le: 06 septembre 2015, à 04:46:48 »
Use a little bit of creative thinking, jesus..we're not married to the 4 day, 1 mode per day format.
Quick example: Arrive monday. TT Tuesday afternoon. MR quals Tuesday evening. MR finals Wednesday. BM quals start Wednesday. Thursday rest of BM quals + finals. Friday + small part of Sat GP. And that's if you really want to play more matches. Neo proposed a system with DE 2 years ago (yep, hes thinks DE could work) that wouldnt even need that many more matches, so I doubt we'd even need as much extra time as i proposed there.

Another alternative is separating qualifiers and KOs. E.g. first 2 days quals, last 2 KOs.
« Modifié: 06 septembre 2015, à 06:03:13 par KVD »

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Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #67 le: 06 septembre 2015, à 05:51:17 »
"A huge load"
I smell a huge load ( ;D) of bs when Im presented with one.

You dismissed my EVO argument by stating it is completely different in terms of size, prize money, etc. You even said I was delusional for thinking CDM could grow to such proportions, eventhough I never even said anything about that whatsoever. I'm not interpreting your post in any other way than you wrote it. Deny that and you're just being flat out dishonest and there'd be nothing particularly intellectual about it either toots.

Also I'm putting the format up for discussion not because of 1 arbitrary Sami knock-out, but because of observing it fail every year. I have put this up every year, the Sami example is just the latest in the line. I love CDM, the people and the competition. I just don't agree with the system. Thankfully we have the Belgian group format, that salvages part of the problem.
« Modifié: 06 septembre 2015, à 06:08:44 par KVD »

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Re : Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #68 le: 06 septembre 2015, à 11:57:00 »
Use a little bit of creative thinking, jesus..we're not married to the 4 day, 1 mode per day format.
Quick example: Arrive monday. TT Tuesday afternoon. MR quals Tuesday evening. MR finals Wednesday. BM quals start Wednesday. Thursday rest of BM quals + finals. Friday + small part of Sat GP. And that's if you really want to play more matches. Neo proposed a system with DE 2 years ago (yep, hes thinks DE could work) that wouldnt even need that many more matches, so I doubt we'd even need as much extra time as i proposed there.

Another alternative is separating qualifiers and KOs. E.g. first 2 days quals, last 2 KOs.

i think it will be hard to change the "1 day per mode" format, mainly because it is very convenient to deal with people who come just some days to play some specific modes : it would be silly to be able to play the groups without being sure to be able to play the playoffs for instance.
and it would be difficult to play something more than TT the first day, especially for people who has to make a 8+ hours trip to come to cdm. otherwise we would have to arrive one day before just because of this kind of schedule : i m not sure it would fit to everybody.
so i think that in fact, we are married with the "1 day per mode" format, or at least with a "one mode is played in one day" format
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Re : Re : Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #69 le: 06 septembre 2015, à 14:03:21 »
Use a little bit of creative thinking, jesus..we're not married to the 4 day, 1 mode per day format.
Quick example: Arrive monday. TT Tuesday afternoon. MR quals Tuesday evening. MR finals Wednesday. BM quals start Wednesday. Thursday rest of BM quals + finals. Friday + small part of Sat GP. And that's if you really want to play more matches. Neo proposed a system with DE 2 years ago (yep, hes thinks DE could work) that wouldnt even need that many more matches, so I doubt we'd even need as much extra time as i proposed there.

Another alternative is separating qualifiers and KOs. E.g. first 2 days quals, last 2 KOs.

i think it will be hard to change the "1 day per mode" format, mainly because it is very convenient to deal with people who come just some days to play some specific modes : it would be silly to be able to play the groups without being sure to be able to play the playoffs for instance.
and it would be difficult to play something more than TT the first day, especially for people who has to make a 8+ hours trip to come to cdm. otherwise we would have to arrive one day before just because of this kind of schedule : i m not sure it would fit to everybody.
so i think that in fact, we are married with the "1 day per mode" format, or at least with a "one mode is played in one day" format

+1 with clbrun (i often disagree with him on other topics ::) so for once i can agree with him I like to mention it)

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Re : Re : Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #70 le: 06 septembre 2015, à 16:19:41 »
i agree with scoub and tif, but i also agree with karel on one single point : to minimize the effect of a bad performance in playoffs (like sami's maybe) or an unlucky defeat, i guess diminishing the bonifications points to strengthen the group stage points would be a good thing.

the gap (in term of points, not skills) between the guys in the top4 is to big imo : the 2nd has twice more points than the 4th (and this gap is quite equivalent with a good group stage performance) but he just won one match more (in the semi final).
and the 2000 points for the winner is just ridiculously too much imo too : it made drew finish overall 6th, before jey (who made 2 semis + 1 quarter + 1 top16) although drew didn't qualify in TT and was twice eliminated in the first playoff match. for me, the overall ranking should depend of the overall skills of each player and thus not be so over-rewarding for a "one mode performance", so i guess jey should have been better ranked than drew because he was more polyvalent (but maybe not before sami, it's hard to tell)

+1 :police: c'est quelque chose à creuser effectivement en plus de ce que j'ai suggéré
Rien de neuf sous le soleil, voir ci-dessous.
http://www.ffsmk.org/forum/index.php?topic=5893.msg171165#msg171165
Mais c'est difficile de faire changer les choses ::)
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Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #71 le: 07 septembre 2015, à 12:21:17 »
Any looser bracket for them ?  ::)

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Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #72 le: 12 septembre 2015, à 14:07:48 »
Touché  ;D ;D ;D :'(

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Re : Awarding the top prizes. An idea by Zarkov.
« Réponse #73 le: 12 septembre 2015, à 14:15:20 »
The CDM is too much shaped to accomodate everyone (1 size fits no one), maybe I wouldn't be such a bad thing when the people have to adjust to the CDM for a change? The event is worth it.

I hope Neo's evolution concept will really happen (not instead of what we have now, but on top of that). Starting with a blank slate means we have a new shot at getting some illogical stuff right without the huge burden of heritage.
« Modifié: 12 septembre 2015, à 22:14:56 par KVD »