Auteur Sujet: Rule changes for 2020  (Lu 5236 fois)

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Rule changes for 2020
« le: 02 janvier 2020, à 21:55:04 »
Hello everyone, now that the new year is upon us, I feel like it's a good time to reopen the discussion on potential rule changes for CDM 2020. While I'd like to start by focusing on the TT format and point coefficient, a number of other issues have been brought up that should be addressed (hence the more general topic title). Such issues include (but aren't necessarily limited to):
- high level of fatigue for top players at the end of CDM. -> Reduce length of matches in KO stage (especially Top 4)?
- group stage placements for 2P modes hinge on a very small number of matches/rounds, whereas the majority are inconsequential. -> Shift towards fewer but longer matches in group stage and/or make Shakedown shorter (or even disappear completely)?
- players on the verge of qualifying can get shafted in the final matchday(s) by matchmaking. -> Rework how Belgian system assigns matches (at least towards the end of group stage)?
- players cannot tell exactly how well they are doing during the competition (be it within a group stage or for the overall ranking), and mistakes slip through due to restricted access to information. -> Make all competitive information transparent to all participants throughout the event?

With that in mind, I'll start with the biggest topic (i.e. the one most discussed up to this point): Time Trial. As a reminder, the main point of contention is whether TT should count the same as each of the 2P modes towards the overall ranking, as opposed to the existing ruleset where TT is worth the same number of points for group stage, but half the amount for KO stage bonuses. Given how well-received the LKS system was at CDM 2019, I see four options for CDM 2020 (in order of magnitude of change relative to CDM 2019):
1. Everything stays the same as 2019.
2. Same format as 2019, but TT is worth the same as every other mode.
3. TT is worth the same as every other mode, and the (KO stage) format is lengthened to account for the mode's increased value.
4. TT is removed from CDM.

My personal preference would be for either option 2 or 3. The major question surrounding option 3 is what the new format would entail. The best proposal for a longer format that I've been able to come up with (after a brainstorming session in the SMK WhatsApp group last September, and again given the overall success of LKS) is as follows.

Group stage remains the same (all players go through all 20 tracks, and GS rankings are based on AF). The KO stage would then be a longer and slightly modified version of the 2019 LKS. The start of the KO stage (8 tracks) would be a "moving window", where the first track would be played by the 16 players ranked 9th-24th in GS. The last player on that track would be eliminated, and the player ranked 8th in GS would then join for the second track. Continue this process, eliminating one player and adding the next player from the GS rankings in ascending order. After 8 tracks, the player ranked 1st from GS joins and all remaining players form the Top 16. The next 8 tracks play out in the same way as in 2019. Once there are 8 players remaining, each remaining player receives an extra life (so they now have two each). The LKS continues, with the last player of each track losing one life (and getting eliminated if they are out of lives) until 4 players remain. Once there are 4 players remaining, each remaining player receives a second extra life (so they now have two or three each). The LKS continues again until there is only one Last Karter Standing.

I believe that this format achieves the objective of a longer TT KO format while maintaining the core values of the TT event (and the benefits of the LKS system). For reference, the number of tracks played in this KO stage format is 33-35 (depending on how many lives the winner ends up with), with the #1 from GS playing 25-27 if they reach Top 2. Compare to the existing formats, where someone who reaches all finals has to play 15 tracks in TT KO stage, 39-72 in BM/MR (32-60 without barrages), and 70-110 in GP (60-100 without barrages). This format also incorporates an equivalent for 2P barrages, which allows for bonuses to be allocated for ranks 17-24 (just like in 2P modes), and accounts for the increasingly tough competition between players in that range.

As an aside, while I think that it's perfectly reasonable for anyone to express their opinion on these topics (while remaining civil, etc.), I also think that the only people who should be given a vote in these matters (since that is likely how these decisions will ultimately be made) are those who have participated in a recent CDM. I'd say that the last two years is a good cutoff for recency, especially if we return to Alphen in 2020.

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« Réponse #1 le: 02 janvier 2020, à 23:14:02 »
I can live with 1 2 and 3.
Removing TT sounds ridiculous to me.
For me also 2 and 3 are preffered over the rest and of those 2 I would go for the lengthened version since more points would merit more racing as well with less randomness involved.

Have you done any thinking on how much longer it will take in that scenario and what time we would need to start then, considering logistical challenges?

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« Réponse #2 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 01:11:02 »
I don't think we need to make the points even.
On my first appearance at CDM 2017 I was 100% that TT should be worth the same points as the other modes. I since have realised that not only is it a shorter day of competition but the whole point of the meet is to play against the other people head to head, we can play TT all year through the players site.
I really like the idea of the sliding window in LKS to open up a couple more positions, the lives Im not sure about, the final should be between the top 3 not 2 (often 1v1 TT can be a little boring I think)

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« Réponse #3 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 11:19:38 »
TT being longer for higher coefficient is fine. As long as it has a first to x number of matches (considerable amount) in the later stages like the multiplayer modes so it isnt a sudden death deal. Whether it is the moving window or other.

The fatigue situation just needs a little adjustment. Maybe slightly (but not too much) trim the multiplayer mode lengths so it is done quicker. There was an issue last year with the French stream too so sometimes we had to run some long matches one at a time? If that is resolved it will trim a bit of time too.

The next issue with the fatigue is to do with personal discipline:

Most players did the right thing here and that's fine. But once the final matches are done please try to make your way back to the hotel and have rest. It is fun to stay up late and chat and drink and play more games until late hours. But you will wear yourselves out and a few days later you will feel it by the last day or two of CDM. I have seen this a lot every year and didn't want to say anything, but I will now. This is more of an issue if we do not use a hotel but previous venues where you can stay up till 4am if you want to - players would do this. Try to be sensible to yourselves and plan your time to rest. Then you are also not rushing up late and getting to the venue a bit late for registration. Also have a good breakfast, it will give you energy and drink plain water during the day. It is summer and warm weather and with respect I am sure you will do this anyway. But just in case you are not, keep in mind. Also if anyone is planning to drink a lot of beer / wine etc in the earlier days... I don't do it so I can't speak for your bodies, but just keep in mind if it affects you at all. Maybe consider saving it a bit more until the celebration night after the matches are over. Then enjoy and have fun  :)

It is just about planning a bit better for yourselves too.
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« Réponse #4 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 11:20:27 »
Great post Lafungo, it's time to find out where everyone stands on these issues indeed.

It's been said many times, but the fact that so many newcomers are shocked when they find out the TT competition is undervalued at CDM says it all. I could continue writing many paragraphs why this needs to be changed, but that would probably just restart the same loop of arguments back and forth that we've already been through (too many times).

So rather than trying to convince anyone, I'd just like to state my preferred order of the TT proposals:
3...................2, 4, 1.

So yeah 3 by a big margin. To further justify beyond any point of dispute that TT should be treated as a full fledged component of CDM it ought to be expanded at least a bit. I like the sliding window idea, but am open to other suggestions as well. As the current sliding window proposal stands we can easily squeeze that in from a time management point of view.

Also, as a logician I'd rather have TT removed than having it treated as some sort of inferior party mode barely worth bothering with. Especially as it's the mode that we as a community invested by far the most hours into. So indeed I'd take proposal 4 before proposal 1.



« Modifié: 03 janvier 2020, à 11:34:24 par KVD »

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« Réponse #5 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 11:36:31 »
I don't want to argue anymore on that topic, as it tends to irritate me and i'm being aggressive in my words, so I'll just give my preference.
Plus Sumner summed it up quite brillantly. <3

I'd go with 1.
For the others, not sure about the order, but probably 3 then 4 and 2.
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« Réponse #6 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 11:42:45 »
"the whole point of the meet is to play against the other people head to head, we can play TT all year through the players site."

I would just like to insert here that from the point of view of an organiser, when taking the above point seriously the conclusion leads to choosing proposal 4, not 1.
« Modifié: 03 janvier 2020, à 11:50:11 par KVD »

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« Réponse #7 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 11:59:28 »
I forgot to mention in my original post that although I think both options 2 and 3 are OK, I think that option 3 makes a lot more sense, as an expanded LKS format would better suit TT as a fully-fledged mode at CDM.

TT being longer for higher coefficient is fine. As long as it has a first to x number of matches (considerable amount) in the later stages like the multiplayer modes so it isnt a sudden death deal. Whether it is the moving window or other.

For reference (since Sumner brought it up, and I expect more people to have similar questions/doubts), this is why I included the extra lives in my extended format proposal. One of the issues with the standard LKS system (as well as the old TT format) is that the later KO stages are extremely short despite having the highest stakes. Giving out these extra lives is a way to lengthen the most important part of the event with minimal compromise to the values of the format.

"the whole point of the meet is to play against the other people head to head, we can play TT all year through the players site."

I would just like to insert here that from the point of view as an organiser, when taking the above point seriously the conclusion leads to choosing proposal 4, not 1.
+1

My response to that particular argument is also that the way we play TT all year through the PP is very different to how we play at CDM. There's only one time a year (two if you include ASMKC) where you can compete in a TT one-try format (and with the added pressure of a live event). It's a completely different experience to regular TT.

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« Réponse #8 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 12:19:46 »
I'll go for 2, 3, 1, then 4.

Not sure about the extra lives thing but let's try if it is the community's vow.

I really enjoyed the LKS last year, and if TT takes more time and gets more intense, it should be more rewarded.

I'm not a fan of the idea of shorting the other days, as we already removed 2 games in GS since 2017 (I think?)

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« Réponse #9 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 12:53:37 »
I write this response from the point of view of only attending a single CDM. However I did experience some issues and also seen a lot of really good in the event.

Firstly the transparency of the multiplayer modes needs to be addressed. A simple clerical error can have big implications to a marginal players chances of qualification. To address this I propose to go to a hybrid system of pen and scoresheet given to each competitor at the start of every day including TT. Also make the results spreadsheet available online as a non-editable document. A player then at any point can go to the site and cross check their results. This would also have the benefit of allowing the twitch viewers to follow the results as they happen.
In relation to the Belgian System by being able to see all results and tables we as players will know what we need to do if on edge of qualification.

Now to the cauldron of fire that is TT
Most of us play TT for most of the year. Not having an Event at CDM would remove one of my favourite modes so I would discount 4 as an option straight away.
Option would be to start the TT day earlier and lengthen the format to give it an equal amount of points to each other mode. So overall 3 would be my preference
In the Whatsapp chat I was a big voice for what I called “Dead mans boots” or as Lafungo put it more PC “Sliding window”
With 16 players from 9-24th playing their track. Ranks 6-8 should be assigned a console to practice so they don’t come in cold. When 8th joins in the LKS 5th sits down and gets time to play and so on.

But if we are going to extend the format why limit to 24?
Why not 32 with 17-32 playing down to 8 players that then join 9-16th. This would give more players an experience of the format without adding fatigue to the top players because tbh if you are a top player and finish that low then you deserve to suffer.

Ok rant over so ill finish with a quick few points


Lets just get Alphen confirmed and reg open asap. The sooner we can all book our flights the better.

Give an option to players to book the hotel at the offer price on the Monday as well. With players already in the Netherlands a day earlier it allows TT day to start earlier.

Please talk nicely to Lars so he provides the food again. It was delicious and his Restaurant is absolutely top class.

For the Alphen residents. Please Vote whoever implemented that tourist tax out of office. Still scratching my head over which brain surgeon thought that was a good idea.

And finally lets all keep on karting  ;D

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« Réponse #10 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 14:21:14 »
But if we are going to extend the format why limit to 24?
To match the barrages in the 2P modes. If we want to extend KO stages beyond 24 players it should be for all modes, but that would require a separate (major) conversation. Personally I don't think that current CDM numbers warrant more than 24 players making it past GS, nor do I think there's much demand for it from people in that range.

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« Réponse #11 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 17:19:06 »
But if we are going to extend the format why limit to 24?
To match the barrages in the 2P modes. If we want to extend KO stages beyond 24 players it should be for all modes, but that would require a separate (major) conversation. Personally I don't think that current CDM numbers warrant more than 24 players making it past GS, nor do I think there's much demand for it from people in that range.

I always guessed that if we started getting nearer the max signups of 64, then doing a Top 32 would be viable. Whatever works best.
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« Réponse #12 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 17:38:52 »
C'est bien, au moins on parle des règles début 2020 et c'est cool ;D
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« Réponse #13 le: 03 janvier 2020, à 21:12:43 »
Citer
Personally I don't think that current CDM numbers warrant more than 24 players making it past GS, nor do I think there's much demand for it from people in that range.
As someone sitting about 24th I don't want it to be anymore with current numbers.

More to do with saving time and reducing match fatigue could we use a bye system on MR BM GP days where through about the middle 8 matches of GS everybody will have one match off.
- It allows the participants to rest, watch a live match, beer smoke play F1 or whatever they like for one match.
- I think for rankings it should not be in shakedown or the final few GS days

For BM I assume there is an estimated GS "day" time. Should we put a time cap on GS days where if the 4th match has not begun then it becomes a best of 3 series instead?
- I think BM can really stretch out the week being that its not the last night (I like GP150 last still)
- This could impact strategy for the winner of the first match

On TT if it is that big of a deal I would agree a bigger tournament can be worth equal points, which I would participate in but I thought we wanted less time.

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« Réponse #14 le: 18 janvier 2020, à 12:42:21 »
It's been over two weeks since the last post in this topic, so I am assuming that everyone who wanted to express their opinion on the TT rule changes has done so by now. With that in mind, it seems that most of us want to go forward with option 3 from my first post, and that my format proposal is satisfactory. Therefore, unless new posts are made in the next few days, I think it is reasonable to consider this matter settled, and we can move on to discussing other potential changes.