Auteur Sujet: Rule / Schedule changes for 2023  (Lu 2956 fois)

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« le: 03 janvier 2023, à 20:46:49 »
I'm opening this topic because there are a few points that should be discussed with regards to the format (rules and/or scheduling) for 2023. Maybe these should have separate topics for each point, but I'm putting them all together for my own convenience and because there's some degree of connection between them.

- TT KO stage format: I heard a few people complaining last CDM about LKS being too volatile for a TT event that has the same weight as the 2P modes. I'm open to discussion on the vast majority of aspects of the rules, but as the de facto person in charge of the ruleset, there is one point I am completely unwilling to discuss: we are not reintroducing mode coefficients.
That said, I'm perfectly fine with adjusting the TT KO stage format to something that people feel is more appropriate for a TT event with the same standing as the 2P modes. This can be as simple as replacing the extra life in Top 8 with an extra life in Top 16, to something more drastic like scrapping LKS altogether and making TT KO stage a double elim bracket with 1v1 TT matches. I would personally prefer to keep a format with the entire field playing aganst each other, but if people feel strongly about moving to a 1v1 format then that's fine too.
In any case, any change to the TT KO stage format is likely to make the mode last longer, which brings me to my next point.

- general CDM scheduling: top players have mentioned the issue of long days of competition for years, but with the introduction of double elim and other recent format changes, competition days are increasingly packed. I think there are a few potential options to alleviate this, which I think we should discuss. For example, with a longer TT event it may be necessary to move the opening ceremony to be (even) earlier in the day, which to some degree would align with increasing expectations for people to arrive in town the previous evening.
Personally, the most interesting suggestion I've seen is to add a break day in the middle of CDM. Most people who participate in a full CDM will take the entire week off regardless, so it seems reasonable to at least consider adding a day to the schedule (despite the constraints of such a change, like increased costs for participants). Thus, the CDM schedule would look something like Monday - TT, Tuesday - BM, Wednesday - break, Thursday - MR, Friday - GP, Saturday - closing ceremony. This would allow for a lot more socializing and non-SMK activities together, which I think is something that core community members tend to value more and more.

- 2P group stage format: I know there's been a lot of discontent with the Swiss system, especially in 2022. A big part of the issue is simply that I messed up in preparing the matchmaking algorithm for the last couple rounds. I had even foreseen the issue and prepared a solution for it months in advance, but I completely forgot about it later on and didn't realize my blunder until it was already too late at CDM. I plan to provide a simulation of what the pairings should have been for those last few matches in each of the 2022 2P group stages so that people can get a better idea of how the format is supposed to work.
Regardless, it's clear that there needs to be discussion as to what the 2P group stage format should be for 2023. Options include keeping Swiss (with corrected matchmaking algorithm), going back to Round Robin groups, or some new hybrid format (possibly with fewer matches for top/bottom players?). Just to be clear however, returning to the Belgian system is not an option.

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #1 le: 04 janvier 2023, à 14:18:17 »
I shared my thoughts in private, so far I only have 2 notes about Time Trial day, if I have more I'll update my post :)

I am really a fan of LKSeven if it could benefit from a life once you reach top 16 after the barrages.

I also think it's very important, at least from barrages up to top 6, to have 2 people dedicated to give the players their start, positionned at opposite sides of the venue, so we divide the waiting time loss by 2 and don't have to wait 10 minutes between 2 rounds. Also, this way, the last players cannot see what happened on stage or to the first players as they will be focussing at the same time.

I miss CDM a lot  <3
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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #2 le: 05 janvier 2023, à 15:03:15 »
As promised, I've simulated what the pairings should have been for Rounds 11 and 12 of each of the 2P modes based on the fixed matchmaking algorithm I had come up with prior to CDM. For Round 11, I simulated the pairings using the provisional ranking at the end of Round 10. For Round 12, I simulated the pairings using the provisional ranking at the end of Round 11 even though that provisional ranking was "tainted" by the incorrect matchmaking used at CDM for Round 11.

I'm not sure how to best present this data on the forum. I'll try embedding some screenshots and hope that works out well.

Battle Mode


Match Race


Grand Prix


I think it's obvious that this simulation yields much more reasonable matches overall. All the egregiously bad pairings from CDM are gone, and replaced with more sensible pairings. For example, instead of having #5 Jarmou vs #6 Geo and #36 607 vs #37 Banana in Round 12 of GP, we would have #5 Jarmou vs #36 607 and #6 Geo vs #35 NekBagord.
Generally speaking, I think that this approach does a reasonable job of having the players in the middle of the pack fight between each other for who makes it into the Q1/Q2 barrages.

I do think that there's still somewhat of an issue in that if a player manages to jump up above the middle of the pack just before Round 11, then that player can benefit from (relatively) easy draws in the last two rounds. Perhaps the clearest example of this is Willem in GP, who landed at #17 just before Round 11 after beating CaptainHum, Lenain, and Sparks in the three prior rounds. I have an idea for how to better handle the matchmaking in these last couple of rounds in order to account for these scenarios (and the reverse scenario, such as JDR landing at #29 just before Round 11 after losing to Lafungo, Geo, Mario, Moll, Sumner, and GAS in rounds 4 to 9), but I'll post about that later.

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #3 le: 07 mars 2023, à 13:11:21 »
Now that CDM '23 has been confirmed, I feel it is time (and actually way overdue) to respond to this topic. I hope more of us do, so informed decisions can be made (rather than people complaining about rules several years after the debate on them took place while they preferred to remain silent at the time... ::) ).

I do not feel super strongly about any of the topics aired here, but what I do feel strongly about is the general experience of the event. So if many people feel strongly one way or another, in general I would be happy to side that way. Within the bounds of what is reasonable of course.

- TT KO stage format: 

I do not feel strongly about the format of the TT KO stage. I have a slight preference of LKS over a double elimination 1 vs 1 format (the latter would mimic the other modes more). Simply because of the spectacle it provides and the fact so many people can face each other simultaneously. However, if many people want the alternative, I would definitely be open to try the 1 vs 1 DE bracket format. I know they use it for MK64 TT and for example Moll is a proponent of this system being used.

This can be as simple as replacing the extra life in Top 8 with an extra life in Top 16.

I would like to see this. At the very least actually. The elimination of Neo and Guilherme in the very early stages of LKS at CDM '22, highlighted that it is a bit too volatile the way it is at the moment. It is perfectly OK for players of such calibre to be eliminated early, there is always a chance for that, but not after only ONE unfortunate result (BC3 thwomps could already make it a reality). One incident negating weeks/months of practice in Coach' case was just too harsh and also "just" a little too inaccurate from a competition point of view. One of the thrills of LKS is how cutthroat it feels, but I feel that this would be preserved even with a bit more safety buffer in place. Let's say you can afford one or two more early mistakes, but then you are back at the same situation of cutthroatedness (is that even a word) soon enough anyway. Just a bit deeper in the LKS bracket.

- general CDM scheduling:

Again, I have no strong opinion. Basically if it turns out that having an extra rest day will incentivize more people to go I would welcome that scenario. I know ScouB is one of the top players who complained in the past about the intensity of the event and being completely drained on the last day. I do not know if this is one of the ingredients that keep him from competing further, but if it is, then perhaps that would alleviate that obstacle at least. Could we have ScouB back if we implement more rest? One can dream! Or contrarily, if people cannot afford the extra day, because of work or finances, then it would be something we should avoid. But to make such decisions we do need these people to speak up either way. Otherwise the status quo will be preserved and everything will stay like it is.

[- 2P group stage format:

I prefer using the fixed Swiss system ("results" as detailed in Lafungo's last post) over most / any other GS system currently being considered. I do think it is better than pure Round Robin simply because it is more enjoyable facing people of your own skill level more frequently for a higher % of meaningful matches.
« Modifié: 07 mars 2023, à 16:21:31 par KVD »

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #4 le: 11 mars 2023, à 20:13:30 »
I'm not really to bothered by formats, with the exception that I would like to see the group stage match numbers increased back up to 14 (was 12 last year and that felt too short imo, though I know people have wildly differing views here). I do think TT knockout stage rounds need to be organised a bit better, far too long waits between rounds and with how long it takes to start each player sometimes you have people starting after others have finished in the earlier rounds and it gives an unfair advantage (really think people should all be started at the same time, just need to regulate tv volumes or allow headsets so people who do use audio cues for zoomstarts don't interfeer with each other too much, we manage fine starting at same timne on other days so why not TT)

I don't like the idea of a rest day in the middle, as I can't really see it being used as a rest day and people just using it to practice for the following days mode even more. I'd rather just get the 4 competition days done and then enjoy the rest/fun on the following day like we normally do. The added cost of an extra hotel night would probably mean I'd just skip the freeplay day or ceromony day if we had a forced extra day in the middle.
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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #5 le: 21 mars 2023, à 20:06:40 »
I have an opinion (actually). Haha  :P
I think that (a derivative of) the TT bracket system used for ASMKC might actually be preferable over LKS. It is basically a hybrid of the LKS system we use (through the usage of multiple lives) AND the system we previously used for CDM (slowest half loses a life rule). When the latter system was used at CDM we still had 0 lives and in that setting it is even harsher than LKS (and definitely overly harsh therefore). But with some buffer lives this system is probably more enjoyable/fair. A player cannot afford to completely avoid risks as not only the slowest outliers, but any underperformance, can get punished. But you're also not immediately brutally punished by an elimination after 1 bad track. I like it a lot actually. Id just argue to get rid of the convoluted half-lives thing (and the consequential duplication of lives for the top-4 which feels a bit like too much of a bonus and can create unmerited discrepancies; instead just give 2 extra lives in top-4 or whatever), but that’s perhaps the only tweaking that is needed.

I don't like the idea of a rest day in the middle, as I can't really see it being used as a rest day and people just using it to practice for the following days mode even more. I'd rather just get the 4 competition days done and then enjoy the rest/fun on the following day like we normally do. The added cost of an extra hotel night would probably mean I'd just skip the freeplay day or ceromony day if we had a forced extra day in the middle.

I am open to try the rest day if people want it, but when pressed I would agree with your assesment here Moll.
« Modifié: 22 mars 2023, à 10:54:51 par KVD »

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #6 le: 22 mars 2023, à 19:30:52 »
What about just use the same system than in regular phasis :
- play several tracks (maybe 5?)
- people get points according to their ranking (1st = Xpts, 2nd = X-1 pts, ..., last = 1pt) for each track
- half of players (best total points rankings on the 5 tracks) is qualified, the other half (lower total points rankings) is eliminated

So that one bad track is not "auto élimination"
And no lives to manage
Maybe add some bonus points for top times on each track ?
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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #7 le: 23 mars 2023, à 23:21:00 »
That could work. There are a few viable alternatives it seems.  :D

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #8 le: 24 mars 2023, à 02:44:07 »
For TT i have some views that i have said in the past but with the new venue may be more possible?

Group Stage as normal with 24 for the cut off

As per the 2P modes let 17-24 battle down to 4 with no life (As 2022)

Those 4 join 13-16 (With no life)

The 4 then join the 9-12 bracket with all 8 having an extra life to match the double chance that all other modes have.

4 now join the 5-8 bracket and lives reset at two.

We then have top 8 and they get 3 lives only to fight to the end.


With only 8 players at a time there could be a shotgun start as all could have space around the arena. So by saving those few minutes with each not having their own start this system could work imho
« Modifié: 24 mars 2023, à 02:46:39 par SparksF1 »

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #9 le: 24 mars 2023, à 15:28:33 »
I'm glad to see that we're finally having some discussion regarding the rules.

Of the TT KO stage proposals so far, I think that using something similar to ASMKC is the one I like the most. Having both played and spectated the format at ASMKC, I think that it does a good job of balancing the different elements of TT KO stage as described by Karel. The main modification I would want to discuss relative to ASMKC is the exact life allocation used, which is mostly a matter of pacing.
Another thing that would need to be decided is how to rank players eliminated on the same track. ASMKC uses TT GS total time as a tiebreaker, but I don't think that this is a good idea for CDM, especially since players already receive points for group stage. A fairly obvious option (although perhaps not desirable?) would be to use the players' times on the last track as a tiebreaker.

Regarding the other proposals so far, I think that they're quite reasonable, but not as good in my eyes as the other options.
For clbrun's proposal, although removing lives does add some clarity to the format, I think that having to perform on every single track individually is part of what makes LKS-style formats so tense and exciting. I also don't think that having a life system is particularly complicated, unless you start doing something weird like ASMKC's "half-lives". In fact, I would argue that having to establish rankings over multiple tracks to calculate who advances requires more management than LKS-style formats.
For Sparks' proposal, the obvious benefit is never having more than 8 players competing on a given track, which makes TT KO stage logistics easier to manage. However, I dislike the idea of giving top GS finishers an even bigger advantage by advancing them further into the bracket.

Regarding downtime between tracks, this was obviously still an issue last year and something that needs to be worked on. I think that Jarmou already touched upon the obvious solution, which is to have two people making players start at the same time. Having just a couple more people helping out with logistics during this phase of the championship could help cut down on waiting time a lot.

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #10 le: 07 juin 2023, à 11:21:35 »
It's June already and CDM is less than three months away, so I'd like to finalize the ruleset sooner rather than later. Based on feedback I've read in this topic and elsewhere, it seems that (aside from fixing the matchmaking algorithm) the only change that will happen this year is the TT LKS format.

Given the positive reception of the LKS format used at ASMKC for a few years now, the core idea for CDM 2023 will be to adapt that system. For reference, here is a description of the ASMKC TT format:
Citer
1st Barrage mode
All players will pair up and complete all Time Trial courses. The results of this will be used as a tie breaker in the life phase.
2nd All contestants life Phase
All players are allocated five lives. Courses are chosen at random. Players who have times in the top half of contestants do not lose a life. Players with times ranking in the bottom half (rounded down if there are an odd number of players) do lose a life. When all lives are gone for a contestant, they are eliminated.
3rd Top contestant showdown
When the contestants are whittled down to the top four (or three, depending on if certain players were simultaneously eliminated) contestants, those top four contestants all gain half a life point. They then compete against each other only losing half a life if their race results in them being in the bottom half of resulting times.
Note that the 1st phase ("Barrage mode") corresponds to group stage at CDM, and that a player's total time in that phase is used as a tiebreaker if two or more players are eliminated on the same track in a later phase (corresponding to KO stage at CDM).

As far as adapting this system to CDM, I think that the core components to be kept are:
- multiple lives allocated to each player at the start of KO stage.
- on each track, the bottom half of the field (rounded down) loses a life.

Components that I think should be changed for CDM are as follows:
- using results from group stage as a tiebreaker in KO stage. I think that having your results from group stage impact your results in KO stage (beyond initial seeding/setup) feels bad as a competitor, and is something that we should avoid doing. My suggestion is to instead use results from the final track as a tiebreaker in case two or more players get eliminated at the same time.
- the number of lives allocated to each player. Five is likely too many for the larger field at CDM, and no half-life shenanigans.

Another issue that I have with the ASMKC format is a natural consequence of how it functions: because each player has multiple lives and the number of lives lost across the field depends on the number of players remaining, this means that there's a lot of variability in how many tracks are played, both in total and at different stages of the competition. For example, if the field is super imbalanced, it's possible for half the field to be eliminated after the minimum 5 tracks, leaving the other half with all of their lives intact. On the other hand, if the field is more evenly matched, then it might be the case that everyone goes down to their last life before a single player is eliminated! This also means that when reaching the "final" (two players remaining), the life count can be anywhere in the range of 1 - 1 to 5 - 5, or even 5 - 1. These different outcomes completely change the length and dynamics of the latter portions of the LKS, and in my opinion this is a negative aspect of the format.

To remedy this issue, I propose the following:
- at the start of Top 16, each player receives 3 lives. After each track, the bottom half of the surviving players (rounded down) loses a life until 8 players remain. Those 8 players advance to the Top 8. If multiple people are eliminated on the last track (e.g. 3 players lose their final life when there are 9 players remaining), then their times on the last track are used as a tiebreaker to determine who advances to the Top 8 (e.g. the fastest player of those 3 would advance to the Top 8 ).
(break before Top 8 )
- at the start of Top 8, each player's life count is reset to 3. Same procedure as Top 16 until 4 players remain, who then advance to Top 4.
(break before Top 4)
- same procedure for Top 4 as Top 8 until 2 players remain, who advance to Top 2.
(break before Top 2)
- each finalist starts with 3 lives, slower one loses a life each track until there is one Last Karter Standing.

In my eyes, the two main benefits to this format compared to ASMKC are:
- a lot less variability in number of tracks played. Each of Top 16/8/4 is composed of between 3 and 7 tracks, with the majority of cases falling closer to 5 tracks. Top 2 takes place over 3 to 5 tracks. (If we were to do 4 lives per player per phase, then each of Top 16/8/4 would have 4 - 10 tracks with most being close to 7, and Top 2 would have 4 - 7 tracks.)
- clearer demarcation between the traditional KO stage milestones of Top 16/8/4/2. Surviving to the next phase of the KO stage is a significant feat, and this format highlights this by putting everyone back on the same initial footing at the start of the next phase. This also means that if a top player stumbles and loses an early life, then they're not disadvantaged in the latter portions of LKS.

Please let me know what you think, and hopefully both the TT LKS format and overall CDM 2023 ruleset can be finalized soon.

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #11 le: 07 juin 2023, à 13:23:50 »
This sounds 'perfect', I think it will very elegantly fix some of the issues there indeed are with the ASMKC system (which in and of itself is already pretty great imo)!

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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #12 le: 07 juin 2023, à 19:23:20 »
j'en sais trop rien en fait, il faut tester mais je te fait confiance
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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #13 le: 10 juin 2023, à 02:44:15 »
It's June already and CDM is less than three months away, so I'd like to finalize the ruleset sooner rather than later. Based on feedback I've read in this topic and elsewhere, it seems that (aside from fixing the matchmaking algorithm) the only change that will happen this year is the TT LKS format.



J'espère que comme moi, tu as vu ce qui ne va pas du tout dans cet algorithme (3 choses essentiellement), pour le "fixer", parce qu'il y en a sacrément besoin ...
« Modifié: 11 juin 2023, à 14:25:24 par Narnet »
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Rule / Schedule changes for 2023
« Réponse #14 le: 10 juin 2023, à 10:36:51 »
Sois plus explicite s'il-te-plaît.  :)